Trump

vimothy

vimothy

yurp
completely agree about russian power historically. and russia is a globally significant power today, despite what maybe many people think, and its geography determines its interest in the middle east. I was just making the point, somewhat counter intuitive perhaps, that despite the kind of quote-unquote mainstream narrative, it's not solely trump who was the confront china instead of russia guy. obama also moved in this direction. like trump he was elected to end the "forever wars" in the middle east, and one of the ways he did this, or tried to do this, was by leaning on russia, in Syria, in the iran nuclear deal, effectively increasing russian influence in the middle east. so theres a certain amount of continuity there. trump isnt the rupture, at least in fp terms, that he is sometimes portrayed as.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
mixed_biscuits said:
If Trump had let Putin invade Trump would have told Zelensky simply to surrender thereby saving the lives of millions.
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Your position seems to be that whenever one side aggresses against another, the weaker side is morally compelled to capitulate immediately.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
France made the right call. It depends how gloomy the prospects look: Ukraine are at a stage where they're sending their young women to the front line. They are auto-genociding. Germany didn't even manage to get a foot in Kent let alone the rest of the country. War is lower stakes these days. Surrendering country is not going to be slaughtered en masse or enslaved. And you never know how things are going to turn out...the French surrendered but look how well they are doing now!
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
mixed_biscuits said:
France made the right call. It depends how gloomy the prospects look: Ukraine are at a stage where they're sending their young women to the front line. They are auto-genociding. Germany didn't even manage to get a foot in Kent let alone the rest of the country. War is lower stakes these days. Surrendering country is not going to be slaughtered en masse or enslaved. And you never know how things are going to turn out...the French surrendered but look how well they are doing now!
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You're seriously claiming things worked out pretty well for France under German occupation?

Holocaust Survivors and Victims Database -- French deportation lists [Computer database], containing 69940 names of Jews deported from France between 1942 and 1944 / [compiled

www.ushmm.org www.ushmm.org
 
IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
I think there's always a certain amount of continuity between leaders, it's like turning an oil tanker I imagine. A new leader comes in and maybe he's campaigned against policy x of the previous guy. He hates x, he's told everyone x is terrible. He's gonna reverse or replace x the second he can. So probably if it is something that can be meaningfully changed he will make damn sure he does that - otherwise he'll look like a liar or an idiot.

But there are thousands of things kinda ticking along from the last administration and the one before that too. And most of them aren't gonna change themselves. So while the new leader is putting loads of effort very visibly keeping his campaign promise, it's hardly surprising that lots of other stuff just carries on the same with noone really looking at it of paying attention.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
IdleRich said:
I think there's always a certain amount of continuity between leaders, it's like turning an oil tanker I imagine. A new leader comes in and maybe he's campaigned against policy x of the previous guy. He hates x, he's told everyone x is terrible. He's gonna reverse or replace x the second he can. So probably if it is something that can be meaningfully changed he will make damn sure he does that - otherwise he'll look like a liar or an idiot.

But there are thousands of things kinda ticking along from the last administration and the one before that too. And most of them aren't gonna change themselves. So while the new leader is putting loads of effort very visibly keeping his campaign promise, it's hardly surprising that lots of other stuff just carries on the same with noone really looking at it of paying attention.
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The Biden administration has replaced 'build the wall' with 'the wall is being built'.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Mr. Tea said:
Your position seems to be that whenever one side aggresses against another, the weaker side is morally compelled to capitulate immediately.
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Your counter-example (Jews in France) is not representative of my position (my bad): capitulation is the right thing to do when it means the end of people being killed. The aggressed party might complain that their innocents are being killed by the aggressor and so the aggressor should stop, but if the aggressed is also able to prevent this from happening and this undermines their claim that the aggressor should stop. There are 3 basic plays: raise, check, and fold. If you've got a clearly losing hand folding is not a bad way to go.

 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
mixed_biscuits said:
Your counter-example (Jews in France) is not representative of my position (my bad): capitulation is the right thing to do when it means the end of people being killed. The aggressed party might complain that their innocents are being killed by the aggressor and so the aggressor should stop, but if the aggressed is also able to prevent this from happening and this undermines their claim that the aggressor should stop. There are 3 basic plays: raise, check, and fold. If you've got a clearly losing hand folding is not a bad way to go.

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You're assuming that the completion of invasion means an end to people being killed, and also that life is tolerable is for those who are not killed. Russia's behaviour in the regions of Ukraine that it's occupying does not support these assumptions, to put it mildly.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Mr. Tea said:
You're assuming that the completion of invasion means an end to people being killed, and also that life is tolerable is for those who are not killed. Russia's behaviour in the regions of Ukraine that it's occupying does not support these assumptions, to put it mildly.
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Yes, I am assuming that. For instance I don't think the IDF will continue bombing should Hamas surrender completely. It's a judgement call.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
What you've written is basically a charter for imperialists, fascists, Stalinists, and every other conceivable species of bully.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
There's literally a famous story about this dilemma:

Obviously, if you can stand up to and beat the fascist bully then go ahead e.g. as Israel is doing with Hamas; the bully isn't invariably stronger.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
@mixed_biscuits raising his foot in preparation to annihilating a snail he can see making its way towards his prized tomato plants: "Take that, vile persecutor!", and then patting himself on the back for having bravely stood up to a Bully.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Mr. Tea said:
@mixed_biscuits raising his foot in preparation to annihilating a snail he can see making its way towards his prized tomato plants: "Take that, vile persecutor!", and then patting himself on the back for having bravely stood up to a Bully.
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Spot on: Hamas are the snail attacking the completely defenceless prized tomato plant except the gardener is not a bully because he seeks to punish the bully, just as a teacher that gives a bully detention is not herself a bully.
 
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