UK EU Referendum Thoughts

[luka]

You must have heard a decent argument though. They must have something

 

[vimothy]

Personally, I would like Britain to recover its independence.

 

[luka]

Just for the abstract concept of sovereignty or to curb immigration?

 

[vimothy]

That's a general principle, of course. At the same time, "Europe" (meaning, the EU) is an ongoing disaster, beset by crises that it is incapable of solving. The severity of its short term outlook is only exceeded by that of its long term prognosis. Europe is dying, frankly. So as far as the particulars go, if I were going to give away my freedom and sovereignty, it would not be to a political union of terminal (and accelerating) decline.

 

[vimothy]

Well, I don't think that leaving the EU would curb immigration. It's more for the "abstract concept" (though I don't agree that it is abstract; it's actually quite concrete).

 

[Mr. Tea]

Hi John I was just wondering if you've got any good arguments for leaving cos I haven't come across any yet. I want to hear the out argument

The UK contributes more to the EU than it receives in subsidies. Or so it's commonly said. Any economics bods care to corroborate/refute this?

 

[luka]

I couldn't give a shit about independence cos it has no effect in my life and even accepting your prognosis I can't see how an independent Britain would be exempt from any terminal European decline. Can I have a different argument? You must have some more?

 

[luka]

The UK contributes more to the EU than it receives in subsidies. Or so it's commonly said. Any economics bods care to corroborate/refute this?

Wouldn't have a clue but doesn't the economic argument revolve around trade deals/access to markets rather than subsidies?

 

[vimothy]

Why must I have more? If you are only motivated by what will directly improve your own material well-being, then you are not going to find my argument appealing, I wouldn't have thought.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Wouldn't have a clue but doesn't the economic argument revolve around trade deals/access to markets rather than subsidies?

Yeah, probably. I'm no expert on it, obviously. But if non-membership of the EU would entail prohibitive trade tariffs, then surely the question is: why? They're not a force of nature. Why do countries have to be in a political union in order not to impose barriers to trading with each other?

It's often said (by anti-EU voices, usually) that Switzerland the Norway enjoy most or all of the benefits of EU membership without being members. Is this true? Or is something that can't be applied to the UK, as both countries are far smaller and have highly specialized main industries (oil/gas in Norway's case and banking - moreso even than the UK - in Switzerland's).

 

[vimothy]

Having said that, it is extremely difficult to measure with any degree of certainty such an impact. How do you know that Britain's long-run economic health is better in the scenario where we stay in the EU (never mind its net effect on you personally)? Of course, you don't. No one does.

 

[luka]

Why must I have more? If you are only motivated by what will directly improve your own material well-being, then you are not going to find my argument appealing, I wouldn't have thought.

Not for your own good. I just want to feel swayed so tje vote feels meaningful and I've engaged in the arguments by talking about it on dissensus.

 

[luka]

Having said that, it is extremely difficult to measure with any degree of certainty such an impact. How do you know that Britain's long-run economic health is better in the scenario where we stay in the EU (never mind its net effect on you personally)? Of course, you don't. No one does.

Who can see into the future?

 

[Mr. Tea]

There are good environmental reasons for leaving, too.

 

[luka]

But I'm not just concerned with my own personal wellbeing incidentally I'm thinking of the general good.

 

[luka]

There are good environmental reasons for leaving, too.

Yeah all these sort of arguments rest on the assumption that we would do the right thing were it not for Europe but we wouldn't cos we're cunts too

 

[vimothy]

Basically, the idea that leaving the EU will ruin the UK economically is a bit silly (as silly as the idea that leaving the UK will ruin Scotland). So you should find another way to rationalise your vote.

 

[luka]

Of course it won't ruin it but it will inconvenience it, that much my crystal ball can see

 

[luka]

You have much more faith in your crystal ball than me you're basically Spengler

 

[luka]

The other way I rationalise it, as mentioned above, is that this is a country full of red faced tory cunts who need a restraining influence. Quilted Barbour cunts