Media stab frenzy

[noel emits]

About roles:

I think the suggestion, and I don't know if it was aimed at me, it's not what I was saying so I assume it wasn't, but the suggestion that bringing up the topic of possible media selectivity, in this case nothing more sinister than trends and focus, is equivalent to claiming there to be an evil conspiracy that invents news stories, although as it turns out this may not be so far from the truth, is not only revealing of attitudes around this issue, but is also by implication an attempt, conscious or otherwise, to prematurely cast anyone who talks about it in the role of 'naive conspiracy buff', or whatever, without taking the trouble to actually consider what is being said. Maybe Mr. Tea does hang around with a lot of annoying conspiracy buffs though.

Leslie Nielsen carries around a fart-bag to derail expectations and ascribed roles. This is preferable to and probably more effective than using a knife in most situations, in my opinion.

 

[Mr. Tea]

unfortunately luka, mr tea seems to struggle with the idea a little

Arrgh, for fuck's the sake, what is this? "The media are selective, ergo you have to disregard them completely", or something? Of course the amount of coverage given to each case varies, and any discussion of the causes of this kind of crime and what, if anything, can be done about it is strictly for the comments and analysis pages. But I'm talking about the actual statistics behind all these, the simple numbers themselves.

I mentioned actual figures earlier, and the first Google result for 'teen killings london statistics' is this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/articles/2007/12/11/kurt_teen_murders_feature.shtml , from that notorious organ of Murdochian tabloid propaganda, the BBC.

 

[matt b]

calm down, there's a at the end of that sentence.

and please don't attempt to turn me into some sort of conspiracy nut.

i'm not denying there's an issue, simply that we are going through a process of media moral panic, which means the issue gets blown out of proportion; young people are percieved as deviant, leading to an increase in perceptions regarding alienation, which makes solutions even more difficult

 

[Mr. Tea]

It's not really got anything to do with 'conspiracy theories' as such, at least as I would use the term. It's more just a case of people being (rightly, of course) wary or openly critical of the spin put on news stories or the way stories are assigned a certain implicit priority, but then going so far as to seemingly question whether or not the thing being reported has even happened at all.

With this teen-on-teen violence, I'd certainly agree that there has been a media frenzy, and that news stories of this sort, on a story-by-story basis, seem to be getting more coverage than they were a few years ago. But another reason there's more coverage is because more cases are happening.

One other thing that's probably worth asking is: do we really want to live in a society where kids stabbing and shooting each other to death is not considered newsworthy?

 

[noel emits]

That's all totally fair, except no-one has done anything like this:

going so far as to seemingly question whether or not the thing being reported has even happened at all.

It's a matter of proportion as you say. I think in the case of teenage murders it probably is quite readily quantifiable* but you do get spurts where large sections of the news media become unduly preoccupied with one issue or another, be it drugs, terrorists, sex attackers, financial scandals or whatever. It's faddism largely but the herd mentality is also exploited by PRs and spinmeisters. They'd be fools not to take advantage.

* although it is never a good idea to underestimate how many ways a pie chart can be sliced.

 

[Mr. Tea]

That's all totally fair, except no-one has done anything like this:

Well, maybe not in this thread, but (without wishing to rehash old arguments) it's pretty much what I've seen one or two other people write on here in the last year or so.

 

[woops]

best thread evar

but needs more toccowich obviously.

lol at all this.

I'm off to Politics to start a thread called 'bourgeoisie "don't understand breeding"'

 

[Mr. Tea]

but needs more toccowich obviously.

Yes, he is the king of conspiracy theories, hands down.

lol at all this.

Heheh, dead kids. Lol!

 

[mms]

That's all totally fair, except no-one has done anything like this:

It's a matter of proportion as you say. I think in the case of teenage murders it probably is quite readily quantifiable* but you do get spurts where large sections of the news media become unduly preoccupied with one issue or another, be it drugs, terrorists, sex attackers, financial scandals or whatever. It's faddism largely but the herd mentality is also exploited by PRs and spinmeisters. They'd be fools not to take advantage.

* although it is never a good idea to underestimate how many ways a pie chart can be sliced.

but would you agree that the massive growth of teenage kids being stabbed to death by other teenage kids n the last two years is a terrible thing though?

rather than a media frenzy?

 

[noel emits]

No I think it's a wonderful thing.

Far too many of the little blighters if you ask me.

But perhaps sending them off to Canada would be more humane.

 

[noel emits]

What a question. Of course it's bad.

But I'm usually not there when these things are happening. All I actually know about a reported event is what I hear on the radio or read on news.bbc. So I was asking a question - often media coverage of hot topics is disproportionate and misleading, as we've established many times over on this here thread.

I think this is an honest position. Let's see the figures. OK so the last two years are bad and apparently we all know it's 'rough being a kid these days'. What is the actual magnitude of this problem? 26 teenagers were murdered in London in 2007. OK obviously 26 terrible tragedies / wastes of life / bleeding heart / platitudes in case the self-righteous get a bit funny. OK, how many were murdered in London in 2004? 1989? 1975? Can we compare these figures to the other needless deaths of people due to neglect / abuse / corruption / pollution / war / poverty / ignorance etc. Who decides that 'oh, we must think about the babies', Marvin bloody Gaye? Sod that, I'll decide what I think is tragic. I don't like to see people eating lambs, I think that's really preying on the young but I'm not writing fucking newspaper articles about it. Oh yeah of course, we're only supposed to worry about humans cos otherwise you're being disloyal to the team or something.

If you're talking about the thread title, well that's to get attention and to make it interesting, a standard media practice even amongst serious news services. Don't get up on high horses about how this is such a serious issue. It's taking things too seriously that causes people to stab others in the first place. This is just a discussion board.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Sod that, I'll decide what I think is tragic. I don't like to see people eating lambs, I think that's really preying on the young but I'm not writing fucking newspaper articles about it.

*puts on Devil's Advocate hat*

Why not? If it's that tragic to you why aren't you trying to do something to stop it? Seems a bit cowardly to just be quietly outraged about it.

*takes off hat*

And in all seriousness, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with humans beings placing a higher value on human beings than on other animals. Call me 'speciesist' if you like...

Edit: please bear with me a second, I'm not disagreeing with you for the sake of it here, promise...

It's taking things too seriously that causes people to stab others in the first place.

I'm not sure about this. I think the fact that a lot of kids are so ready to stab each other over the slightest thing is a symptom of them failing to take life - and, concomitantly, death - anything like seriously enough.

 

[noel emits]

Why not? If it's that tragic to you why aren't you trying to do something to stop it? Seems a bit cowardly to just be quietly outraged about it.

I don't think it's tragic so much as I think it's cruel and unnecessary to breed these animals and then slaughter them shortly after they are born. But that's just my view, I'm not a fascist about attitudes towards it and although I might occasionally mention it gently to someone in conversation, mostly I just try and live by my own standards. People definitely do not respond well to being harangued about their eating habits. But the main reason I don't write articles about not eating lambs is that I don't consider doing that to be my role.

And in all seriousness, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with humans beings placing a higher value on human beings than on other animals. Call me 'speciesist' if you like...

No, I don't think it's surprising or wrong either, the point is that what you choose to focus on as your pet TERRIBLY BAD THING, is variable. There's all sorts of horrible stuff happening all the time, who gets to decide what's worst and how you should feel about it?

There are elements of the same old self-righteous / delicious outrage / morbid~sentimental / cheap thrills about this and the Great British Public's moral / emotional / very-grown-up-concern pressure points are targeted so well each time. Oh yeah I forgot, kids stabbing each other is actually happening. If the trend continues like this something like 30 teenagers could be murdered this year on the streets of London, someone call Ralph Mctell. Am I being unduly irreverend about a VERY SOLEMN TOPIC?

I'm not sure about this. I think the fact that a lot of kids are so ready to stab each other over the slightest thing is a symptom of them failing to take life - and, concomitantly, death - anything like seriously enough.

Yeah, I don't know. This is complex. That would certainly be a very interesting psychological phenomenon if it were the case. Mass sociopathy? Shall we blame GTA Vice City or Vietnamese weed growers? I do think though that there is a link to the 'culture of offense'. I think people often underestimate how influenced children are by the attitudes demonstrated by those they even subconsciously see as being their elders. Tribal values - our leaders are violent, so our children are violent. Religious leaders start saying, chat about us and you'll get arrested or bombed.... See where it leads?

 

[luka]

i approve of noel emits....

 

[Mr. Tea]

As a wise man on another message board once said to me, "(The existance of things worse or more serious than issue X) ≠ (a reason not to care about X)". So you don't have to stop caring about lambs because kids are knifing each other, or vice-versa.

[Edit: unintentional lol at 'lambs/kids'...]

 

[noel emits]

(available column inches / attention span) - other concerns < ∞

 

[Mr. Tea]

Shit, I feel like I've opened a right old can o' worms here. This is getting altogether too Lacanian by half...

Edit: well Noel, you were asking for numbers:

Metropolitan Police figures show that the number of victims of knife crime have gone down. In the year to March 2008, there were 10,220 such crimes, compared to 12,124 for the previous year - a reduction of 15.7%.

But the number of knife victims aged between 11 and 18 increased by 4.5% between April and July 2005 and in the same period in 2006.

Last year 27 teenagers in London met violent deaths, compared with 17 in 2006 and 15 in 2005.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7436141.stm

So it's not that more people are being stabbed: it's that more kids are being stabbed. Seems to be the youth of both victims and perpetrators that's grabbing the headlines at the moment.
I read somewhere that analysts are blaming the falling age of people getting involved in this kind of violence on the success of Operation Trident a few years back, which took so many 'proper' criminals off the streets that a power vacuum formed, which has subsequently been filled by their sons, nephews and younger brothers.

 

[mms]

I read somewhere that analysts are blaming the falling age of people getting involved in this kind of violence on the success of Operation Trident a few years back, which took so many 'proper' criminals off the streets that a power vacuum formed, which has subsequently been filled by their sons, nephews and younger brothers.

oh dear yes you have!
do you know where you read that - it's an interesting idea but it seems to me to be a one of those ideas that suggests there is a criminal fraternity, that is a natural unchanging element of society who are to blame for everything!

 

[Mr. Tea]

oh dear yes you have!
do you know where you read that - it's an interesting idea but it seems to me to be a one of those ideas that suggests there is a criminal fraternity, that is a natural unchanging element of society who are to blame for everything!

Well it's probably not too much of a stretch of plausibly to suggest that they're to blame for crime, is it?

I can't remember where I read it, probably on the BBC News website since as a rule I don't really have time for papers these days - sounds pathetic, but there you go. Of course I still end up leafing through the free dross that litters every square foot of London, it's almost impossible not too - but it certainly wasn't in one of those.

 

[noel emits]

So it's not that more people are being stabbed: it's that more kids are being stabbed.

Yeah but maybe that's because there's more kids. j/k

I read somewhere that analysts are blaming the falling age of people getting involved in this kind of violence on the success of Operation Trident a few years back, which took so many 'proper' criminals off the streets that a power vacuum formed, which has subsequently been filled by their sons, nephews and younger brothers.

I think I said something up thread about how less guns might mean more knives, with knives being used more readily because the perception is that they are not so deadly, but of course they are.

I don't think the idea of a 'power vacuum' implies a resident criminal fraternity. It's more that there's a certain amount of space and if you take someone off the streets who is involved in criminal activity then someone else, probably a younger person, is going to jostle for that place. Makes sense. Not sure about the family bit though.