Neo-Nazi forum hacked

[droid]

In a democracy, why should someone lose their job for being a member of a (perfectly legal) political party?

 

[john eden]

In a democracy, why should someone lose their job for being a member of a (perfectly legal) political party?

I think the argument is that BNP members are racists and most employers have policies against racism.

It is a very dangerous road to go down though - there would have to be proof of actual racism before a dismissal, I would have thought.

You can see that it could very easily shift into there being a list of proscribed political parties or campaigns which preclude you from working in certain areas.

Plus there is a good chance of compensation pay outs for unfair dismissal...

 

[droid]

I think the argument is that BNP members are racists and most employers have policies against racism.

It is a very dangerous road to go down though - there would have to be proof of actual racism before a dismissal, I would have thought.

Yep. Someone could be a member of the BNP, be a total racist, but never commit an overtly racist act, which means they would be effectively penalised for thought crimes.

It also assumes that every member of the BNP is a death camp nazi, which (as seen by their rise in support), probably is not true.

You can see that it could very easily shift into there being a list of proscribed political parties or campaigns which preclude you from working in certain areas.

Absolutely.

 

[IdleRich]

"In a democracy, why should someone lose their job for being a member of a (perfectly legal) political party?"

Well, there are lots of perfectly legal acts that I could perform which cause me to lose my job. Also, when you join the prison service you are required to sign a form saying that you are not a member of the BNP (among other things), if you then turn out to be a member then it is a simple case of having lied on your application. Obviously this just moves back the question from whether it's ok to fire people for membership to whether it's ok to to make such a request on joining but at least people know where they stand.
I think that the argument with the police is that membership is not compatible with their mandated commitment to equal rights. Probably true but not quite so clear cut I would say.

 

[droid]

Well, there are lots of perfectly legal acts that I could perform which cause me to lose my job.

OK - hit me. I'm talking about acts which don't breach your contract (such as membership of a political party).

Also, when you join the prison service you are required to sign a form saying that you are not a member of the BNP (among other things), if you then turn out to be a member then it is a simple case of having lied on your application. Obviously this just moves back the question from whether it's ok to fire people for membership to whether it's ok to to make such a request on joining but at least people know where they stand.

Well thats the issue isn't it? is it OK to fire people for being members of a political party?

I think that the argument with the police is that membership is not compatible with their mandated commitment to equal rights...

LOL

 

[martin]

It's the omissions I find interesting. Where are the notes regarding which members are the most reliable/trustworthy, who enjoys close links and contacts with similar groups in Europe, who can provide muscle at meetings or events, etc? I expect we've just got the lower league here, data along the lines of the above would be of better use to anti-fascists. Still, the leak's been good propaganda in as much as 1) it reveals the majority of supporters to have exceedingly dull interests 2) it shows that all it takes is one pissed off member to dump everyone else in the shit - hardly the stuff of white solidarity.

 

[IdleRich]

"OK - hit me. I'm talking about acts which don't breach your contract (such as membership of a political party)."

Well I don't think going on dissensus when I'm supposed to be working is in breach of any specific part of my contract but it could probably lead to me being disciplined or even sacked.

"Well thats the issue isn't it? is it OK to fire people for being members of a political party?"

Sure. I just think that people can't be surprised to be fired if they've signed something that agrees that they will be fired if they are a member. On the other hand, I can see where you're coming from when you describe it as a thought crime, it's a strange one. In general what you do outside work should have no bearing on your job but suppose I work for a book shop and I also belong to a political party whose single aim is to close all book shops, in that case would my employer have a right to take an interest in my political activity?

 

[droid]

Well I don't think going on dissensus when I'm supposed to be working is in breach of any specific part of my contract but it could probably lead to me being disciplined or even sacked.

Most employers these days have a 'web usage policy' - so yes it could well be a breach of contract or working conditions.

Sure. I just think that people can't be surprised to be fired if they've signed something that agrees that they will be fired if they are a member.

Ok - well lets put that aside for now its an exceptional case.

On the other hand, I can see where you're coming from when you describe it as a thought crime, it's a strange one. In general what you do outside work should have no bearing on your job but suppose I work for a book shop and I also belong to a political party whose single aim is to close all book shops, in that case would my employer have a right to take an interest in my political activity?

But is that analogy fair? Does the BNP even have such a specific and quantifiable aim that could make the position you hold in an organisation untenable?

 

[john eden]

suppose I work for a book shop and I also belong to a political party whose single aim is to close all book shops, in that case would my employer have a right to take an interest in my political activity?

Even in that case you could argue (as has been argued with the BNP) that you joined as part of research on a story you were doing. Or that you were duped into joining, or it was a practical joke by a friend etc.

 

[droid]

Or maybe you joined because you like their annual féte but aren't so keen on the bookshop closing end of things... there's a thousand possibilities there.

 

[john eden]

Or maybe you joined because you like their annual féte but aren't so keen on the bookshop closing end of things... there's a thousand possibilities there.

Quite.

I'm beginning to get a bit worried that if we carry on talking about the bookshop closing party we will somehow will them into existence.

 

[IdleRich]

"Most employers these days have a 'web usage policy' - so yes it could well be a breach of contract or working conditions."

Well it wasn't in my contract but that's by the by - the point to me is that your average company does not have rules that cover every eventuality that could arise and there are numerous things that I could do that are not covered but which, if I were to do them, would lead to me being sacked and having no reasonable cause for complaint.

"But is that analogy fair? Does the BNP even have such a specific and quantifiable aim that could make the position you hold in an organisation untenable?"

Well, I think that the police position is that the BNP has policies which are racist and which put its members in direct opposition to some of the police's stated rules of practice - namely the equal rights and opportunities bits. If that is the case then the analogy is valid. I guess that the BNP would argue that they are not racist though. Do you know if they have a manifesto and if so what it is?

"Even in that case you could argue (as has been argued with the BNP) that you joined as part of research on a story you were doing. Or that you were duped into joining, or it was a practical joke by a friend etc."

Of course. But I was assuming the situation where the person held his hand up and said "yeah, I'm a member but you still can't fire me" - the denial situation is a different but still relevant question. I'm not arguing by any means that anyone who is on that list should automatically be fired from whatever job they hold.

 

[IdleRich]

"Or maybe you joined because you like their annual féte but aren't so keen on the bookshop closing end of things... there's a thousand possibilities there."

I think that if you join an organisation which very clearly exists for one specific aim then it's not unreasonable to assume that you are in agreement with that aim. Probably worth considering when you join up, however tempting that fete is.

 

[john eden]

I guess that the BNP would argue that they are not racist though. Do you know if they have a manifesto and if so what it is?

Of course they have a manifesto.

Iirc it is couched in terms like "rights for whites". Is that racist? After all, they are only arguing that anti-racism has gone too far blah blah blah and that white people are now disenfranchised.

It's all tied up with a nice multiculturalist bow, probably to avoid falling foul of the race relations laws.

"we're not racists, we're patriots", etc.

 

[droid]

I think that if you join an organisation which very clearly exists for one specific aim then it's not unreasonable to assume that you are in agreement with that aim. Probably worth considering when you join up, however tempting that fete is.

But what if it's a really good féte, with fireworks, three legged races and nice food?

But seriously - do Labour party members support increased privatisation, denial of human rights and the rampant bombing and invasion of other countries?

Not sure what the BNP manifesto is, but I'm sure its not overtly racist. Certainly no more so then the average issue of the daily mail...

Point taken about the Police - but I still think you'd have to actually prove that an act of racism occurred (a practical impossibility in this case I know...), or more pertinently, that an act of racism was the result of attitudes that are evidenced by membership of the BNP, rather than yer garden variety institutionalised Police racism.

 

[droid]

For example - if a BNP member of the Police stops and searches 4 times as many white men than black - is that because he is BNP racist or Police racist?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3732169.stm

Whats the difference anyhow?

 

[jambo]

For example - if a BNP member of the Police stops and searches 4 times as many white men than black - is that because he is BNP racist or Police racist?

Statistically speaking it would be disproportionate unless the officer was stopping about 50 times as many white men.

 

[IdleRich]

Iirc it is couched in terms like "rights for whites". Is that racist?

I think that you could argue that "rights for whites" contradicts the stuff about treating everybody the same. Tricky one again though, if you replaced the word "white" in that sentence with any other grouping it wouldn't be a sackable offence.

"But what if it's a really good féte, with fireworks, three legged races and nice food?"

That sounds like a terrible fete to me.

"But seriously - do Labour party members support increased privatisation, denial of human rights and the rampant bombing and invasion of other countries?"

Well, no. I think it's more nuanced than that in that at one extreme you have the one issue party (the closing bookstore party say) and at the other end you have a thing such as the Labour Party that has a more complex manifesto and also takes other actions that are not in its manifesto. Joining the closing bookstore party means you want bookstores to close whereas by being a Labour party member you are showing fairly strong agreement with the manifesto but you haven't signed up to all the laws they enact in their term in power which you (and they) weren't aware of at the time you joined. The BNP is somewhere on the scale between the single issue party and the Labour party but in my opinion I think it's fairly clear as to what you are signing up to if you become a member.

"Point taken about the Police - but I still think you'd have to actually prove that an act of racism occurred (a practical impossibility in this case I know...), or more pertinently, that an act of racism was the result of attitudes that are evidenced by membership of the BNP, rather than yer garden variety institutionalised Police racism."

Yeah, I agree. I seem to have found myself arguing for the sacking of BNP members here which wasn't exactly what I intended. I can see how an argument could be made for it is what I'm saying but I do feel the force of the objections you are raising about thought crimes and about it would be almost criminalising a political party that is in some sense deemed legitimate. Something that it is easy to be happy about when it's a party you hate but which might have dangerous ramifications.

 

[droid]

Statistically speaking it would be disproportionate unless the officer was stopping about 50 times as many white men.

bleurgh.. sorry that should have read black than white...

 

[droid]

Yeah, I agree. I seem to have found myself arguing for the sacking of BNP members here which wasn't exactly what I intended. I can see how an argument could be made for it is what I'm saying but I do feel the force of the objections you are raising about thought crimes and about it would be almost criminalising a political party that is in some sense deemed legitimate. Something that it is easy to be happy about when it's a party you hate but which might have dangerous ramifications.

Yep. Its the old cliche.

If freedom of political association is to mean anything it must apply to those with whom you disagree as well as to whom you agree. Thats the whole point of it...

That sounds like a terrible fete to me.

You must have been to some great féte's ... three legged races, a few sparklers and and a sausage roll on a paper plate smeared with ketchup is the height of my (obviously deprived) féte-going experiences. So much so that it seems i can't even imagine how such a féte could be improved upon.