nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Why would acid go in your "spine" anyway? It has a first-pass metabolism in the liver doesn't it?
Music that is psychedelic
- Thread starter IdleRich
- Start date
Why would acid go in your "spine" anyway? It has a first-pass metabolism in the liver doesn't it?
empty mirror
remember the jackalope
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Ok, I think I can tie this Bonobo sex tangent and this drugs topic together in an anecdote. On a recent airplane trip, I had the good fortune of sitting next to one Gladys Friedler, a developmental pharmacologist, aged 80-something, noted folk-singer of the 1950s----her research was on the effect of a father's drug ingestion of a fetus, a topic handily overlooked by her colleagues and predecessors. She found her research ignored, or worse, for something like forty years until recent findings validated her life's work. Basically, as she told me on a three hour flight, she dosed a female mouse some opiates (i forgot which) and found that the offspring had slightly lower birthweight, but nothing significant, particularly when compared to the results when the father mouse was dosed----the offspring of mice with the father mouse dosed had a significantly lower birth weight, and a laundry list of defects. basically, she found that these opiates are mutagens.
A little googling turned up the name of her paper:
“Paternal Exposures: Impact on Reproductive and Developmental Outcomes. An Overview. Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior"
besides that she told me of seeing the birth of the acid scene in late sixties san francisco. she also related a story of seeing jefferson airplane in 68 or 69, everyone dosed out their minds, and going into the bathroom to collect herself, and finding women shooting up heroin. she said she didn't do drugs herself, on account of her line of work... she was basically describing the death throws of the flower children.
ack. i've typed too much.
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Child support payments could be seen as something of an evolutionary counterweight.
IdleRich
IdleRich
I can think of several books and one film where horses having sex is used as a scene to get either the characters or the viewer in the mood and I wouldn't say that they were books aimed at women - in fact one was by Wilbur Smith I think which is probably about as masculine as you can get.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well yes, this is just the point I was making.
Certainly not guaranteed to be unscathed though, in a country with things like paternity tests and a child support agency (which, it goes without saying, are obviously Good Things). Not that paying money for a long time is in quite the same league as having a kid to bring up, of course.
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nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Very interesting, yes. Of course this much is true! If toxic substances can mutate cells or DNA from one kind of human tissue (eggs), they sure as hell can mutate cells or DNA of another (sperm). But no one focuses on this, because, as in most sexual matters, people would prefer to moralize only at women, and judge them, and limit them, and contain them via control-mechanisms like objectification.
About opiates and pregnancy--they barely pass through the placenta. On top of this, they are not neurotoxic, so in terms of actual long-term or developmental damage to a fetus due to opiate exposure or in utero addiction, there's almost none, especially compared to other drugs, for example methamphetamine, alcohol, or cocaine. (This isn't to say--go use them! Opiates are just comparatively far less risky during pregnancy--less risky even than antibiotics or aspirin, some doctors might say). Even among these, only alcohol is conclusively proven to cause birth defects and to delay development.
I'd be surprised if Ms. Friedler's research were replicated today with opiate use among fathers, but I would not be surprised at all if they were replicated using alcohol, or methamphetamine, as the control substance.
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nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Not to mention that in the U.S., proving paternity can end up costing a lot of money, a lot of money that impoverished women don't have in the first place, so the women who end up needing child support or alimony the most can't get it.
And no, throwing money at a child is not the same as taking an active and interested role in its development as a human being.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Agreed. My mum used to teach in a prison and so many of the guys she met in there had kids all over the place by a string of anonymous babymamas. Of course, many of the inmates were probably conceived in similar circumstances themselves, and it's hard not see their kids - the male ones, at least - probably growing up to do exactly the same thing. What goes around does indeed come around...
empty mirror
remember the jackalope
the was basically her experience doing the research---it was dismissed largely because the (male) establishment perceived her efforts as "picking on" males.
just reading up on paternal exposure in another book confirmed that it was Morphine that friedler was using in her tests. she found that paternal exposure to morphine negatively effected not only the offspring of the exposed males, but also, the second generation of mice.
haven't read it but this book leans heavily on friedler and takes a political approach to the science of male reproduction
i, frankly, have little exposure to any of this stuff (except for ancient greek ideas of reproduction), i am just here for the psychedelic music, man!
edit: i have been volleying emails with gladys this week---i'm sure she'd be chuffed to know we are talking about her work. our emails are just about folk music. i keep trying to get her to listen to my radio show but she's got dial-up and can't figure it out. maybe i will ask her to sign up here and contribute to this psychedelic bonobo sex thread!
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"wAgAwAgA" Seems pretty psychadellic to me. inhabits a very strange space anyway following a dub/dubstep sort of frame and pushing it with some weird sonics. Well worth a listen. www.myspace.com/splagawagawaga . His album is up for free download thorugh here-> http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=78026590&blogID=452999350
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yeah he's really good, not many ppl have pcked up on him
here is his ep on imminent recordings a bit more focussed than that album
http://www.boomkat.com/item.cfm?id=143281
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
This is really cool, Empty. I'm surprised with the morphine, actually really surprised. Mostly because your brain is always making natural opiates. Must be someting about synthesizing them that makes them DNA damaging. I'd be really interested in finding out though.
littlebird
Wild Horses
interesting paper/topic on a subject that has been overlooked for quite some time, and is still, afaik, underdeveloped. i have read quite a few studies on paternal alcohol consumption and links to certain genetic disorders/birth defects/birth weights. turner syndrome has been linked to paternal alcoholism, and there has been some discussion/study towards paternal alcohol and drug consumption and autism/hyperactivity in offspring (most notably male offspring).
baby, i'll make it out of licorice and skittles and build you an edible galaxy of aural pleasure.
oops, woke up with sleaze mode on again...
shaolinsoul
Well-known member
Dam Funk, the spiritual successor to Prince signed to Stones Throw.
Video is special.
Video is special.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
But with things like autism which (I presume) aren't immediately apparent at birth, how are congenital effects distinguished from the environmental influence of having a junky or an alcoholic for a father?
The brain
anyone know about the Hawkwind/Chrome related project THE BRAIN??????
at some show or other during my teens was given a cassette by this long haired dude who said it was one of his projects. it had a white cover, some drawing of a head or brain on it, and just the words "The Brain".
went home and was blown away, and it became the soundtrack of many many acid trips -- it was weird but so good. WARNING BAD METAPHOR AHEAD: if Chrome, Soweisoso period Cluster, and early Cabs had a three-some... and Legendary Pink Dots raised the demon child.
have been trying to track that fucking thing down for a decade or more... discogs lists like 500 artists called the brain... i'll look harder.
anyone know about the Hawkwind/Chrome related project THE BRAIN??????
at some show or other during my teens was given a cassette by this long haired dude who said it was one of his projects. it had a white cover, some drawing of a head or brain on it, and just the words "The Brain".
went home and was blown away, and it became the soundtrack of many many acid trips -- it was weird but so good. WARNING BAD METAPHOR AHEAD: if Chrome, Soweisoso period Cluster, and early Cabs had a three-some... and Legendary Pink Dots raised the demon child.
have been trying to track that fucking thing down for a decade or more... discogs lists like 500 artists called the brain... i'll look harder.
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nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Autism, I just can't wait until they figure out what causes it. But I highly doubt it has much to do with drug consumption and more do to with environmental toxins. They already discovered a link between areas with high precipitation levels and births of children with autism.
And if morphine is bad for your sperm, I don't even want to know what alcohol can do...scary.
I've been thinking about Ms. Friedler's research for a while and she's amazingly ahead of her time and obviously right on.
Think about it--women are born with all of their eggs. So the only real way you can rely on them mutating is just letting them sit there for a long time and some of them will spontaneously mutate. This is why older women are at an increased risk of having a Down Syndrome baby. But as far as female drug use is concerned--our eggs are pretty far away from any vascularization or blood source. It's not impossible, but highly improbable that they would absorb or be exposed to any drugs that were taken in.
In men, it's an entirely different story. New sperm are made every day or two. These are going to rely on everything you've got, and genetically, yes, they could very easily be mutated by the presence of drugs or toxic substances in the bloodstream.
Friedler makes me realize two things: 1) feminists are nowhere near done and 2) I should really consider applying for MD/PhD programs rather than just MDs if I want to help change the current bias of research into genetic causes that is toward mothers and away from fathers and balance it out. The money's not as good but it's also $200,000 cheaper.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Very interesting...though of course an important environmental factor has to be compounds the foetus is exposed to in utero, right? I mean, it certainly sounds plausible that sperm might be at greater risk than eggs of mutation from exposure to toxins, but there are plenty of things other than mutations that can fuck you up one way or another.