Addiction

[Tentative Andy]

You're both partially right, of course. Have a look at my responses to Baboon upthread where I cover this sort of thing. I feel this recourse to destructive habits as an ease to stress and frustration at upheavals in your life is a rather different thing to the 90s/early 00s mode of consumption where a certain kind of day to day nihlism was accepted as just what one did, indeed was often compatible with being succesful.

 

[baboon2004]

still well easy to get cheap booze, too... in london anyway

Indeed, and the recession is being used as another marketing tool ('credit crunch busters!' etc etc). Go to any London bar on a friday night and there's no way you could tell there's a recession on...way different in smaller towns though.

 

[Mr. Tea]

People are much more aware of the dangers of booze, porn, bad food and other legal vices these days.

But people still consume all those things...they just do so with the pleasure thereby derived tempered by guilt and self-disapprobation. "Yes, I know my cigarette is killing me, can you please just leave me alone to smoke it now?"

 

[swears]

But people still consume all those things...they just do so with the pleasure thereby derived tempered by guilt and self-disapprobation. "Yes, I know my cigarette is killing me, can you please just leave me alone to smoke it now?"

The pleasure enhanced, even. People are always saying how they're going to be a "bit naughty" and have that biscuit, shot of vodka, ciggie, whatever.

 

[Tentative Andy]

But people still consume all those things...they just do so with the pleasure thereby derived tempered by guilt and self-disapprobation. "Yes, I know my cigarette is killing me, can you please just leave me alone to smoke it now?"

So, would you argue that the percentage of people smoking hasn't actually declined significantly over the last 20 years?
That sort of half-guilty/half-defiant enjoyment of things that are known to be bad for you is certainly an interesting social fact, but I would say it depends in some way on the people doing it being in the minority, or at least being aware of theselves as standing against the tide of historical change.

I seem to be getting quite aggressive about all of this... my basic point is just that the world is changing, and that therefore sociological description must change with it. I find it hard to see why this is taken as controversial.

 

[swears]

I seem to be getting quite aggressive about all of this... my basic point is just that the world is changing, and that therefore sociological description must change with it. I find it hard to see why this is taken as controversial.

No, you are right in that we're more conscious of the downsides of all this stuff now. But in a lot of ways that's because there's more of it. It's complicated, you've had a boom in junk food and a boom in weight loss products, a boom in booze consumption and a boom in detox-related services/products, etc...

 

[Mr. Tea]

So, would you argue that the percentage of people smoking hasn't actually declined significantly over the last 20 years?
That sort of half-guilty/half-defiant enjoyment of things that are known to be bad for you is certainly an interesting social fact, but I would say it depends in some way on the people doing it being in the minority, or at least being aware of theselves as standing against the tide of historical change.

No, you're right - people seem to be drinking as much as ever (well, possibly not as much as they were in 1750 - but in recent history, anyway) but smoking is definitely decreasing. Interesting point too about those who indulge in a certain 'vice' being in the minority - bearing in mind that a couple of generations ago it was non-smokers that were the minority.

 

[Tentative Andy]

No, you are right in that we're more conscious of the downsides of all this stuff now. But in a lot of ways that's because there's more of it. It's complicated, you've had a boom in junk food and a boom in weight loss products, a boom in booze consumption and a boom in detox-related services/products, etc...

Yes, absolutely, not to mention the numerous waves of concern about both obesity and anorexia, often seemingly at the same time. It's a strange world out there.
But my hunch is that slowly but surely, people are learning to look after themselves and reign in their bad habits, not so much because of some innate good sense but more because of basic economic necessity. I'm open to being proved wrong about this, though, we'll see.

 

[Tentative Andy]

No, you're right - people seem to be drinking as much as ever (well, possibly not as much as they were in 1750 - but in recent history, anyway) but smoking is definitely decreasing. Interesting point too about those who indulge in a certain 'vice' being in the minority - bearing in mind that a couple of generations ago it was non-smokers that were the minority.

It's a weird one, to say the least. Part of me increasingly has a grudging respect for those who still insist on smoking, in the face of the heavily documented serious health risks, the massive financial cost, and now increasing social approbation towards it. But I'm also aware that this is something of a dangerous and patronising attitude coming from a non-smoker, given that their usually stated reasons - 'it's my choice what to do with my body' and so forth - whilst true in principle, are often in practice being employed as rationalisations for a serious physcial and psycological addiction.
Personally I reckon I'll take up smoking when I get to about 65, if it's still legal then and if I'm still alive and functioning myself. :slanted:

 

[BareBones]

those who've never been a smoker will never know the exquisite pleasure of, say, a fag after a big meal... and the smoking ban has in a way made me enjoy smoking more, because you get the camaraderie of sticking it to the man with all the other smokers outside the club, not to mention the fun of antagonising really puritan non-smokers... yeah, i'm addicted

 

[nomadthethird]

My cousin is a pharmacologist, or something, and he says that one of the dangers of coming off heroin, and doing it 'one last time' is that, as it's a fairly heavily ritualized drug, done in similar places, with the same people, the body learns to expect it and starts preparing to deal with it. As such, once your body's forgotten this, when you take a dose that you're nominally used to, you can be in real trouble. He's fairly well-respected in his profession, so I imagine this is true, what I want to know is, how much of the notion of 'building up a tolerance' is down to this, and how much is physiological?


I suppose I could ask my cousin this, but where's the fun in that?

If you haven't done it in a long time and you try doing your old "standard" dose, you can easily OD. Most people shouldn't even shoot it if they go back they should snort it first I would think. One of my friends died the day he got out of rehab because he shot his old dose.

 

[nomadthethird]

I disagree with what you say in the first paragraph, and can say from personal experience that it's utter rubbish. I am a voyeur in that I consume porn, and yet am incredibly tactile, which is (one of the reasons) why real sex is better than porn. Please don't reduce men to two-dimensional caricatures - it's extraordinarily dull to hear.

I don't know you, and I don't particularly care to. But how good you are in bed is not something I'm going to ask YOU and take it for granted that you're right.

 

[nomadthethird]

This is interesting, and very true in my experience. But in a world in which sex is commodified, and (men at least, but I think women too) are endlessly told that you have little/no value if you're not having sex all the time, then this is a somewhat inevitable result. But it's kinda relationship sex vs casual sex, innit? Or (heaven knows), mayb erelationship sex is about power to some people...OK, that's fucked.

See, I have no problem with outside-of-relationship sex, if that's what you really want to do. It can be nice. But problems arise when someone *can't* form any sort of lasting relationships because they're too used to getting casual sex or porn.

 

[nomadthethird]

Martin Amis' Money is my fave addiction book. The protagonist's vices are all legal, but completely fuck him up: stuff like booze, fags, junk food, porn (and money obviously)... Written in 1984, but increasingly relevant since, you can read it as the liberalism and permissiveness of the 60s and 70s curdling into the consumerist self-obsession and voracious appetite of the 80s (and 90s, and 00s...)
I love the way John Self is constantly puzzled as to why he puts himself through all this torment, as he doesn't even enjoy his vices anymore. He's constantly ripped off and offended: one trip to a pro ends in him coming and being slung out before he's even had time to get hard.

Sounds good...

 

[baboon2004]

I don't know you, and I don't particularly care to. But how good you are in bed is not something I'm going to ask YOU and take it for granted that you're right.

Don't be so patronising, duckling. And why should I take it for granted from you that you know anything at all about men, as you clearly have a teenager's* view of the opposite sex (I'm assuming you're not a teenager here, though that might explain a few things...especially the endless sequence of very suspicious** look-at-me stories...)?

* No offence meant to teenagers here...

** i.e. containing a healthy quotient of bullshit...

 

[nomadthethird]

Don't be so patronising, duckling. And why should I take it for granted from you that you know anything at all about men, as you clearly have a teenager's* view of the opposite sex (I'm assuming you're not a teenager here, though that might explain a few things...especially the endless sequence of very suspicious look-at-me stories...)?

* No offence meant to teenagers here...

Did you even read what I originally said before you replied? I said that watching an *excessive* amount of porn from a young age can lead to people being unable to form social bonds that are fulfilling.

I didn't say that watching porn at all is bad. I don't believe sex is bad, nor do I think enjoying watching sex is bad.

But if you don't understand the entire culture of porn that the internet has created, and what it's done to American youth, then I'm guessing you're fucking old and out of touch.

Ask any first year psychology student. It's fucking 101 shit.

What do you know about my "view" of the "opposite sex"?? Nothing.

 

[nomadthethird]

I love how fucking devastating it is to a male's ego when a female suggests that he may not be as amazing in bed as he believes he is.

Chuckle.

 

[baboon2004]

Did you even read what I originally said before you replied? I said that watching an *excessive* amount of porn from a young age can lead to people being unable to form social bonds that are fulfilling.

Ask any first year psychology student. It's fucking 101 shit.

What do you know about my "view" of the "opposite sex"?? Nothing.

Sorry, did I upset you? Auch.

You're referring to a different point, love. You're the one who fails to read what other people say.

Obviously enough, what I know of your view is limited to what I've read you say... To repeat, I belong to the opposite sex, and I was saying that your view of men is hampered by your reducing them to beings that cannot have multiple characteristics that seem contradictory to you. What you said in that paragraph was rubbish.

 

[nomadthethird]

Sorry, did I upset you? Auch.

You're referring to a different point, love. You're the one who fails to read what other people say.

Obviously enough, what I know of your view is limited to what I've read you say... To repeat, I belong to the opposite sex, and I was saying that your view of men is hampered by your reducing them to beings that cannot have multiple characteristics that seem contradictory to you. What you said in that paragraph was rubbish.

No, you didn't upset me.

Where did I reduce anyone to anything? I simply said that there are MOUNTAINS of evidence that today's youth are increasingly more socially alienated and unable to form lasting bonds. Not as defined by me, but as defined by the psychiatric-medical establishment. Many professionals in part implicate porn in this social problem.

Want some articles? Links to studies?

 

[baboon2004]

I love how fucking devastating it is to a male's ego when a female suggests that he may not be as amazing in bed as he believes he is.

Chuckle.

What a predictable response. I was irritated by your patronising tone, not your viewpoint. Which is of little consequence seeing as I don't know you and most of what you write sounds very much like self-aggrandising lies to me.

Darling, I have a healthy degree of humility. You have to learn it, sadly.