Swine Flu

M

massrock

Well-known member
But seriously, don't panic. I'm in danger of worrying myself now.

Stay healthy, eat well. And if it gets really bad, stay away from the zombies!
 
B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
I think we'll be fine if we give the army carte blanche to shoot everyone with a bit of a cough.

I doubt any more than one in two will die that way.

I bid you goodbye, gentle(wo)men, as I leave for my secret bunker in Pimlico.
 
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nomadthethird

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
mistersloane said:
Pandemic is imminent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8025931.stm

My partner is a doctor and says that the surgeries are totally prepared, though there seem to be no instances of Tamiflu being shipped to chemists yet, suggesting a slow response from the government.

Amazing stories about people walking into the practise reception sneezing going 'I went to Mexico the other week and seem to have a cold, what should I do?'. Perhaps not walk around the street sneezing, love.

Quite scary, really.
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Thing is, tamiflu won't work against novel H1N1...it mutated directly in response to that and similar antiretrovirals, it has a special mutation that makes these sorts of treatments completely ineffective. None of them work, it's completely antiretroviral resistant, isn't it?

But, we shouldn't have been using them in the first place really. If we continue, we'll just keep making stronger flus, as they continue to evolve in response to our challenges.
 
F

four_five_one

Infinition
nomadthethird said:
But, we shouldn't have been using them in the first place really. If we continue, we'll just keep making stronger flus, as they continue to evolve in response to our challenges.
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Yes, I recommend echinacea instead. Keep it natural. Can't go wrong.

Everyone seems to be wearing these flu mask things here in Bangkok. The government is handing out 20 million of them free. Any worker exposed to the public pretty much has to wear one. Anyway, I was convinced I'd caught it yesterday when I developed a fever, went out with a guy on Friday who was sick, and they told him to stay off work for the week, suspecting the swine, so what else could I think?

Fortunately I'm getting an immense pain whenever I take a piss now, so it's probably actually something harmless like gonorrhea, thank god.
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
nomadthethird said:
None of them work, it's completely antiretroviral resistant, isn't it?
QUOTE]

Not sure. A vaccine won't be available til September (hah) at earliest, and Tamiflu's not live, so I'm unconvinced that it'll cause a mutation, more like just act as a bigtime fever control. I'm not sure what Tamiflu actually does, will have to look it up.

None of the people who've died so far (in London, big panics over 'healthy' - what is that? - people dying) have been proven to even have died of 'it'. The media's being very, very irresponsible, it's horrible to watch.
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M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
What it has shown is that in the event of a 'real' epidemic, the public can't be trusted to operate responsibly (the number of cases of people walking into doctor's surgeries to check whether their symptoms are swine flu or not is mind-boggling, let alone the family who all thought they were infected but still went to synagogue...true story) thus next time round - and I kinda think this was just a test case to see what would happen - next time round it's fucking lockdown.
 
M

massrock

Well-known member
unclerico said:
actually upon closer inspection the article says just that scientists fear it could mutate

this has got to be one of the most pointlessly panic inducing headlines i've seen in a while
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I think what Dr Oliver Pybus is saying in that article is that it will inevitably have mutated somewhere like London by now. What they need to keep a watch on is if it mutates into something significantly worse or different.

Would a vaccine for one strain necessarily be at all effective for a mutated strain? The vaccines are being prepared for the Autumn but a lot could happen by then.
 
C

crackerjack

Well-known member
mistersloane said:
It was at The Doc (my partner)'s surgery. They'd asked for a visit urgently before 8 o'clock on a Friday, doctor does home visit, gets there at 8.05 to find they've all gone synagogue...it would be funny...
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My brother and sis-in-law (both NHS, though my brother also has a nice lil private practice and is shockingly, disgustingly loaded, not that i envy the bastard) tell me about this stuff - people asking for home visits cos they've got trains to catch etc. - though not usually when they suspect they've got wildly contagious and potentially fatal disease and are in a rush to get to a public place. That's special.
 
C

Client Eastwood

Well-known member
David Icke has a rant about the swine flu fear. Is there any truth in what he says are am I just being programmed by the man like he says.

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hmm what happened to embedding links ? Anyhow . . .

 
M

massrock

Well-known member
nomadthethird said:
Thing is, tamiflu won't work against novel H1N1...it mutated directly in response to that and similar antiretrovirals, it has a special mutation that makes these sorts of treatments completely ineffective. None of them work, it's completely antiretroviral resistant, isn't it?

But, we shouldn't have been using them in the first place really. If we continue, we'll just keep making stronger flus, as they continue to evolve in response to our challenges.
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One problem with Tamiflu (apparently) is that it isn't appropriately metabolised very thoroughly and most of it breaks down into a stable compound that can survive water filtration processes, feeding back into the water supply leading to animals ingesting the water to become incubators for Tamiflu resistant strains of the virus. This was a worry with the avian flu a couple of years ago and resistant strains were found to be passing from human to human.

Also suggested that prolonged use can lead to suicidal ideation. Nice.

Information garnered from here:
 
U

unclerico

Well-known member
four_five_one said:
Yes, I recommend echinacea instead. Keep it natural. Can't go wrong.
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might not be such a great idea - i've heard that both echinacea and elderberry extract, which are great for seasonal flu, are not so good for pandemic flu as they can increase inflammatory cytokines which can possibly increase the kind of immune system overeaction that in extreme cases leads to heathy young people dying

might be better to focus on antivirals such as garlic (and tamiflu of course) and anti-inflamatories such as turmeric extract as well as a hefty amount of vitamin d (which is said to be good for moderating immune response) either in the form of oily fish, cod liver oil or supplements

just a thought - i'm not claiming to know for sure but its just what i've picked up from reading around a bit, feel free to correct me if i'm talking rubbish
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Vitamin D, huh? Well a good sunny summer can only help on that front, I suppose.

Also I get through garlic at an almost scary rate, good to know it'll help ward off viruses as well as vampires. :cool:
 
M

massrock

Well-known member
I was wondering about that, thanks for the reminder.

Some good information on natural antivirals and also what might be best avoided (including Echinacea) here:

http://www.the-health-gazette.com/health-gazette-blog/alternative-medicine/natural-antivirals

Research suggests certain natural foods may be as effective against virus H5N1 as commercial antivirals.

(PRWEB) May 10, 2006 -- A Biology teacher from Australia, named Stephen Jones, has done extensive research into the H5N1 virus and compiled a list of natural foods that are effective against it and listed others that are detrimental.

The list may come as a surprise to many people since foods such as spirulina and echinacea are listed as detrimental. This strange occurrence is largely due to the fact that the virus is immune to 2 cytokines that the body produces (TNF-a and IL-6). Cytokines are compounds produced by the body’s immune system that attack and remove foreign bodies. The problem is that when a foreign body is immune to certain cytokines, the body sees that its immune response is not working and tries even harder, which can lead to what is called a cytokine storm, where the body becomes flooded with these compounds and they eventually destroy the body itself. Foods such as Echinacea actually stimulate the production of these specific cytokines; hence consuming it is not a good idea if one suspects they may have the virus.

During the 1918 Spanish Flu many healthy young people died from cytokine storms due to their immune systems overreacting. Consuming foods which suppress the production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6 and enhance the production of the ones that actually are effective against the virus will aid the patient greatly.

Other foods that create mucous in the respiratory tract, such as bananas, are also listed as detrimental due to the fact that the predominant breeding ground of the virus is the respiratory tract and another way in which a patient may suffer is due to the body's over production of mucous in this area.

Folk Medicines and Herbs to use and avoid with Bird Flu

Below is a list of foods that are said to contain substances that are natural antivirals, immune boosters or they decrease cytokines TNF-a and IL-6.

Alternative medications that are most likely to help us during a severe pandemic:

Garlic (allicin) - Very effective antiviral. Best if fresh (raw) and crushed. Must be consumed within 1 hour of crushing. Dosage is initially 2 to 3 cloves per day but later reduce until no body odour occurs. No toxic effects noted. (Pubmed PMID 9049657)

Vitamin C - Boosts the immune system and is an antiviral by blocking the enzyme neuraminadase. Viruses need neuraminadase to reproduce. There are anecdotal stories of people taking large amounts of Vitamin C (children ½) surviving the Spanish Flu. Research shows that it may reduce the production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. A study on 470 people involved giving the test group 1000 mg hourly for 6 hours and then 1000 mg 3 times daily after reporting flu symptoms. Symptoms decreased by 85%. (Pubmed PMID 10543583, 634178, 16169205, 12876306)

Green Tea (possible Tamiflu/Relenza alternative)- Very effective antiviral. Also decreases the production of the cytokine (catechins) TNF-a. Inhibits neuraminidase. May have antiviral activity that is equal to other antivirals such as Tamiflu. (Pubmed PMID 16137775)

St Johns Wort (Hypericum) - Very effective antiviral. Also decreases the production of the cytokine IL-6. Hypericum is an extract from St John’s Wort. There have been some very successful field trials in commercial flocks infected with H5N1 in Vietnam. (Pubmed PMID 7857513, 11518071, 11362353, 7857513, 11518071)

Vitamin E - Immune booster. Also decreases the production of the cytokine TNF-a. (Pubmed PMID 155882360, 10929076) Experiments involved using mice. Very suitable for immune compromised people, especially the elderly. Effects enhanced when taken with Vitamin C.

Apple Juice - Antiviral. Fresh apple juice including the pulp and skin has greater antiviral activity than heated commercial apple juice. More research is needed. Effectiveness on H5N1 is unknown. (Pubmed PMID 32832, 12452634)

Resveratrol - Antiviral. In addition to inhibiting neuraminidase, Resveratrol also sends a message to cells to stop manufacturing viruses. This is a proven antiviral found naturally in red wine, peanuts, mulberries, Japanese Knotwood root (richest source), raisins and red grapes. Resveratrol supplements are relatively inexpensive, are more stable than wine and is available in liquid form for absorption in the mouth. No toxic effects noted. (Pubmed PMID 1583880, 12817628, 15985724)

Scuttellaria (Skullcap) - Antiviral. A herb used as a tea. It has no side effects and is also a mild tranquilliser. Research suggests neuraminidase, which is a substance needed by the H5N1 virus to reproduce, may be inhibited.

Cranberry Juice - Early research shows that it may be an antiviral, making viruses less able to invade or multiply. Effectiveness on H5N1 is unknown. (Pubmed PMID15781126)

Cat’s Claw (Uncaria tomentosa) - Decreases the production of the cytokine TNF-a. Also boosts immune system. The number of white blood cells was significantly increased during treatment. No toxicity was noted. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed) Active constituents can be found in the leaves, bark, vine, and roots. Water extraction from bark used. Children and pregnant women are to avoid. Has a potentially damaging effect on the DNA of proliferating cells. (cancers, foetuses, growing children)

Curcumin (Tumeric Spice) - Decreases the production of the cytokine TNF-a. This is the yellow compound in turmeric spice. Research shows that this may be very good for preventing a cytokine storm although this is not proven. Must be taken with food or gastritis or peptic ulcers may occur. Pregnant women and feeding mothers should avoid this. The medicinal properties of curcurnin cannot be utilised when used alone due to rapid metabolism in the liver and intestinal wall. When combined with Piperine found in black pepper the absorption is increased with no adverse effects. Obtainable from health stores in tablets, liquid, capsules already combined with piperine. Dosage is 500mg to 4000mg daily.

Astragalus root (Astragali Radix) - Boosts immune system. (Pubmed PMID15588652)

Tea tree Steam Inhalation - Reduces the cytokine TNF-a. Add 2 drops of tea tree oil in a bowl of steaming water. Cover head with a towel and inhale for 5 to 10 minutes. Relieves congestion and fights infection. Its effectiveness is unknown. (Pubmed PMID 11131302)

The following substances may be best to avoid during a H5N1 pandemic

Elderberry juice (Sambucal) - AVOID - Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. This substance is very effective against the common flu but may not be desirable for the H5N1 virus. Increases in these cytokines may trigger a lethal cytokine storm. (Isr Med Journal2002 Nov;4:944-6)

Micro Algae (Chlorella and Spirulina) - AVOID - Increases production of cytokine TNF-a. (Pubmed PMID 11731916)

Honey - AVOID - Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. (Pubmed PMID12824009)

Chocolate - AVOID - Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. (Pubmed PMID 12885154, PMID 10917928)

Echinacea - AVOID - Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. Although it is often used for normal flu, research shows that it may increase the chance of cytokine storms for H5N1. (Pubmed PMID 15556647, 9568541)

Kimchi - AVOID - Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. (Pubmed PMID15630182)

Dairy products & Bananas - AVOID - These foods increase mucous production.

References:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/ (search using Pubmed ID number listed after each food)
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