Poor rich people

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Yup.

I have a feeling people here who are positing some sort of "persona" based on internet message board rhetorical style have not met very many people with whom they've interacted on message boards.

Yes, it is certainly possible for a shy quiet person in "real life" to use the internet as a a sort of sounding board or soapbox. In fact, I think it's especially likely that some people (in particular repressed ones) find the internet "freeing" and use it to compensate for the limitations they face in their everyday lives.

But lets face it the majority of people here use it when they have a need to rant and have no other legitimate recipient at hand for said rant... Or at least that's how I use it. I admit that I deliver pretty much identical ranting bullshit to anyone who is willing to listen offline as well (they don't even have to reply) ... also useful for getting ideas shot down if they're utter shite. Or in the glory days of Vimothy if I ever needed a classic libertarian/pseudo-egalitarian/Capitalist pig viewpoint... there was always one readily to hand...
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
HMLT might have had an over-the-top rhetorical style, but he is well-versed in Lacanian psychoanalysis and a certain sort of Zizekian hermeneutics that, while I didn't always agree with it, was fully based in a firm grasp of the texts in question.

So? You might be well-versed in Klingon or Welsh, it doesn't automatically qualify you for anything except the ability to converse with people who speak the same language.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
So? You might be well-versed in Klingon or Welsh, it doesn't automatically qualify you for anything except the ability to converse with people who speak the same language.

Sure. So other people (like me and I can safely assume a few others here) who knew what HMLT was talking about and have read Lacan and Zizek often appreciated his posts. They were often (not always, but often) insightful and I've publicly pointed out several paragraphs HMLT wrote that were particularly eloquent. I remember in particular a few excellent comments he made about "stress", a concept I've been thinking a lot about since I worked with a few of the prominent researchers into the causes and potential management of stress a few years ago.

If others weren't well-versed or knowledgeable enough about the sorts of reference points necessary in order to fully appreciate HMLT's posts, that was not his fault. When he brought up a point of view that he felt especially strongly about, more often than not he was sure to include plenty of links and other useful and constructive conversational material. It's utterly ridiculous to single him out or insinuate that the person who wrote his posts was "mentally ill" because he had strong political views that you or other happen not to relate to. I'm not going to say he didn't get overly worked up and needlessly resort to ad hominem attacks, but he was neither the only one here who did so, nor was he the only one with extreme views.

This dismissive and patronizing attitude that IdleRich frequently exhibits and that you and Vimothy seemed to echo in many discussions -- which amounts to ad hominem attacks in its own right--toward HMLT's and others more intense/extreme views didn't make HMLT, Lacan, critical theory, or any of the other fans of theory here look stupid, they made IdleRich look just as immature as as HMLT at times. Funnily enough, what IdleRich seems to rely upon as the gold standard of universal ideals regarding things like "who's winning a political debate" or "what sorts of philosophical viewpoitns are appropriately levelheaded and therefore unassailable" are far from it. There were often very legitimate counterpoints to be made to HMLT's views, but IdleRich was rarely if ever the one who did so articulately. Tate was really far better at disagreeing with HMLT on legitimate (read: literate) and civilized grounds.

Not to be too inflammatory here, but IdleRich can go ahead and hurl these weird half-assed accusations at the far leftists here insinuating that they somehow must be mentally ill or imbalanced (of course, this in and of itself automatically makes him seem like the litmus test for sanity) by virtue of their heated rhetorical posting style alone. He's also fond of waiting until a thread has died and then going into another thread to declare loudly that his side had *obviously* won the debate, and that he somehow spoke for the general consensus in making this declaration--usually this has something to do with how "above" ad hominem attacks he was. Ironically enough, I've never even bothered boring people with my blind, internet-interaction based judgments regarding IdleRich's state-of-mind, sanity, and personality. Me, the one who "can't *win* an argument" or even make one to IdleRich's exacting requirements! To think that in my complete lack of internet debate skill I forgot to bother making personal attacks on IdleRich. For shame!

I could've long ago admitted that IdleRich strikes me as a barely reformed fratboy whose tastes and interests are aesthetically the equivalent of those of a freshman in college who just had their "intellectual" revelation last month and decided he'd become more of the "poetic art faggy type" to compensate for having spent most of his very young life kicking around a football. From there it was Camus and A Clockwork Orange, mindblowing stuff like that. I'd have admitted that he seems like he probably grew up in the worst sort of bourgie upper middle class household, had everything handed down to him, and of course this is why his "political" views (if you want to call them that) aligned themselves with the sort of white-male-old-Empire sorts of privilege because, well, why wouldn't they? He has nothing to do but gain from politics and the workings of the "system." But I never bothered trying to "construct" a personality or psychological stability level for a stranger on a message board.
 
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nomadologist

Guest

heeeyy. :slanted: I'm not exactly sure what this is getting at, but kanye's words of wisdom about not caring pretty much sums up how I feel about people on message boards who really think talking about getting paid well in the context where the info is used to poke fun at the idea that conservatives are just genetically predisposed to have higher IQs (therefore they grow up to be I-bankers and own more stock and are in general more successful) is out of some sort of pride
 
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nomadologist

Guest
But lets face it the majority of people here use it when they have a need to rant and have no other legitimate recipient at hand for said rant... Or at least that's how I use it. I admit that I deliver pretty much identical ranting bullshit to anyone who is willing to listen offline as well (they don't even have to reply) ... also useful for getting ideas shot down if they're utter shite. Or in the glory days of Vimothy if I ever needed a classic libertarian/pseudo-egalitarian/Capitalist pig viewpoint... there was always one readily to hand...

Oh yeah I'm sure the people here who have met me would say that I don't shy away from arguing about things, especially those silly totally-subjective-but-fun debates about the aesthetic merits of something i like versus the political shortcomings of things I don't. I can't be too horribly mean or scary, I've had these people stay over at my apartment and sleep on my couch and shit. So I'm assuming I'm not like Buffalo Bill's little sister.

I will readily admit I've stupidly allowed Vimothy to stand in for everything I utterly despise about the failures and ludicrous hypocrisies of the neo-conservative movement post-9/11, but it was just too tempting--he buys that shit hook, line, and sinker. And yes, I've called him names because I can't go into professional situations and call the neocon douchebags I meet "douchebags" out loud. If only..!
 

luka

Well-known member
i was just making an off-the-cuff remark about something which was making me laugh. it is pretty funny when these huge gaps between what people say and what they do exist, and peoples life choices do tend to tell you a lot more bout who they are than whatever rhetoric they happen to be spouting over the interent.

i'm sorry it seems to hve got under your skin but you did go on at great length about how much money you make, there were at least 5 seperte posts concerning your salary, by which time i think its fair to say you made your point. lots of people do it though, that osrt of thing, you're by no means alone. im sure ive been guilty of it t times myself, you know, where you boast about something but under the guise of doing something else, like poking fun at somebbody.

i relly didn't mean to cause any offence.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Not to be too inflammatory here, but IdleRich can go ahead and hurl these weird half-assed accusations at the far leftists here insinuating that they somehow must be mentally ill or imbalanced (of course, this in and of itself automatically makes him seem like the litmus test for sanity) by virtue of their heated rhetorical posting style alone.

Umm, as far as I can see it was just a single particular far-leftist that IdleRich criticized.

And accusations of ad-hominem attacks seem a bit rich (ahem) when you go on to call him a mindless privileged fratboy... :slanted:
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Now this is just another example of IdleRich trying to lay claim to being the arbiter of who "understands" psychoanalysis and critical theory when it is very obvious that he himself has read none of it. HMLT might have had an over-the-top rhetorical style, but he is well-versed in Lacanian psychoanalysis and a certain sort of Zizekian hermeneutics that, while I didn't always agree with it, was fully based in a firm grasp of the texts in question.
People may disagree with HMTL, Gavin, me, or any number of people of the critical theory readers here for political reasons, but I have never once seen *anyone* with the sole exceptions of Tate, K-punk or dHarry properly or successfully refute any of their arguments about theory using the authority of the texts themselves and with a solid understanding of the subject matter at hand."
No, nothing to do with theory, in fact that post was actually nothing to do with you at all. On the other hand I guess some parts of it do apply. I know nothing about Lacan and have never claimed to do so, it's just that I don't have to to see that your arguments are wrong becaue the leaps of logic and consistent, demonstrable mistakes you make undermine everything you say before we even arrive at the theory. Whether it's insisting that they speak the wrong language on a Carribbean island or claiming that the oil price has reached a real all-time peak there is no one on here who is proven instantly and unarguably wrong so often as you. Unfortunately even when quickly proven wrong I have never ever seen you admit to it and as for when your arguments make no sense there really is no point in explaining it to you, I've realised that you are not bright enough to understand when you are wrong and that makes you the worst kind of person to argue with. It's simply like banging your head against a brick wall.

"I've met plenty of people from Dissensus and I doubt any of them would say I am "insane" because I'm on the far left of the political spectrum when it comes to academic pursuits."
Don't worry Nomadologist, I don't think you're insane, I just know you're stupid.

"I could've long ago admitted that IdleRich strikes me as a barely reformed fratboy whose tastes and interests are aesthetically the equivalent of those of a freshman in college who just had their "intellectual" revelation last month and decided he'd become more of the "poetic art faggy type" to compensate for having spent most of his very young life kicking around a football. From there it was Camus and A Clockwork Orange, mindblowing stuff like that. I'd have admitted that he seems like he probably grew up in the worst sort of bourgie upper middle class household, had everything handed down to him, and of course this is why his "political" views (if you want to call them that) aligned themselves with the sort of white-male-old-Empire sorts of privilege because, well, why wouldn't they? He has nothing to do but gain from politics and the workings of the "system." But I never bothered trying to "construct" a personality or psychological stability level for a stranger on a message board."
Oh well, at least I'm considered as reformed I guess.
 

swears

preppy-kei
heeeyy. :slanted: I'm not exactly sure what this is getting at, but kanye's words of wisdom about not caring pretty much sums up how I feel about people on message boards who really think talking about getting paid well in the context where the info is used to poke fun at the idea that conservatives are just genetically predisposed to have higher IQs (therefore they grow up to be I-bankers and own more stock and are in general more successful) is out of some sort of pride

Just thought the lyrics of the song were funny in a different context, you working for a drugs firm to pay the bills/not caring what people say, etc... Not a dig at you at all. I work for a logistics firm that is a huge polluter, transports goods I'm sure weren't manufactured with the best worker conditions, has contracts with the UK military... it's hard to find a job that is totally ethical, I mean even your taxes help to fund the war in Iraq/Afganistan and god knows what else...
 
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nomadologist

Guest
Whether it's insisting that they speak the wrong language on a Carribbean island or claiming that the oil price has reached a real all-time peak there is no one on here who is proven instantly and unarguably wrong so often as you.

Don't worry Nomadologist, I don't think you're insane, I just know you're stupid.


Oh well, at least I'm considered as reformed I guess.

First, I did admit I was wrong about Trinidad--once again, you're the dumb one here. I was arguing about whether that Trinidadian person's patois sounded real or affected. THAT's the point I didn't back down from.

Also, oil price DID reach an all-time high even adjusted for inflation IN THE US. You might not want to trust every link to a conservative think-tank's info that Vimothy posts. You may also want to realize that WORLD oil price averages US averages are NOT THE SAME.

You may not agree with me, IdleRich, but calling me "stupid" because you think my politics are wrong makes YOU look just as stupid as anyone else who has resorted to ad hominem attacks. I *know* I'm not stupid, and I really don't care if you think I am. I have had and will continue to have all sorts of validation in my life. You really are the worst sort of upper middle class hypocrit, and that's what makes you mad.

Luka, you didn't offend me at all, I just wanted to point out that you were taking my posts completely out of context.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
No, nothing to do with theory, in fact that post was actually nothing to do with you at all. On the other hand I guess some parts of it do apply. I know nothing about Lacan and have never claimed to do so, it's just that I don't have to to see that your arguments are wrong becaue the leaps of logic and consistent, demonstrable mistakes you make undermine everything you say before we even arrive at the theory.
.

Here it is again, the retardation factor--if you have never read Lacan, then OF COURSE certain things HMLT says or I say will not make sense until you have. This very simple and obvious deficiency of yours seems to escape your notice, well, EVERYTIME a discussion involves either HMLT or me.

I will respect your opinion about who "makes sense" when you actually have the literacy/intellectual competence to make it, which frankly you don't. You rail against theories as "making no sense" that you've never read nor it seems ever even heard of.

You are not only stupid, you're ignorant, and oppressively dull in just about everything you post here. Do yourself a favor and go read Lyotard or something, you might actually eventually have a decent contribution to make that's not from the status quo "common sense" POV that you love so much.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
Umm, as far as I can see it was just a single particular far-leftist that IdleRich criticized.

And accusations of ad-hominem attacks seem a bit rich (ahem) when you go on to call him a mindless privileged fratboy... :slanted:

If you read what I said, I'd refrained from the ad hominem attacks against IdleRich because he never seemed worth the time or effort typing 10 words would set me back. But the repeated "calling out" of banned posters for arguments IdleRich clearly didn't even have the basic literacy to understand makes HIM look stupid, not HMLT.

Just get over it! HMLT was a far leftist academic. BFD. The lack of exposure people seem to have here to basic European texts in the philosophical/intellectual tradition astounds me given how often British people try to look down at Americans as stupid and illiterate.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
Do let's start pointing out the "demonstrable mistakes" in my political views, shall we?

That might be the stupidest thing anyone's ever posted here, save Vimothy.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
Just thought the lyrics of the song were funny in a different context, you working for a drugs firm to pay the bills/not caring what people say, etc... Not a dig at you at all. I work for a logistics firm that is a huge polluter, transports goods I'm sure weren't manufactured with the best worker conditions, has contracts with the UK military... it's hard to find a job that is totally ethical, I mean even your taxes help to fund the war in Iraq/Afganistan and god knows what else...

Oh this is absolutely true. I didn't like what went on in medical publishing, though, I did have problems with it, that's why I left. Will probably end up back in non-profit since I have some interviews next week. I'm picking a nice and harmless NGO that doesn't give foreign aid or work in the third world...
 
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nomadologist

Guest
i'm sorry it seems to hve got under your skin but you did go on at great length about how much money you make, there were at least 5 seperte posts concerning your salary, by which time i think its fair to say you made your point. lots of people do it though, that osrt of thing, you're by no means alone. im sure ive been guilty of it t times myself, you know, where you boast about something but under the guise of doing something else, like poking fun at somebbody.
.

unfortunately, for me, i don't think making too much for what you do is anything to "brag" about, i think it's grossly unjust. but it sure was fun to know vimothy is so stupid he can't even crack $100k/year! ;)
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"You may not agree with me, IdleRich, but calling me "stupid" because you think my politics are wrong makes YOU look just as stupid as anyone else who has resorted to ad hominem attacks. I *know* I'm not stupid, and I really don't care if you think I am. I have had and will continue to have all sorts of validation in my life. You really are the worst sort of upper middle class hypocrit, and that's what makes you mad."
You're missing the point again, broadly I don't disagree with your politics, that's why the illiterate way you put them across offends me.

"Here it is again, the retardation factor--if you have never read Lacan, then OF COURSE certain things HMLT says or I say will not make sense until you have. This very simple and obvious deficiency of yours seems to escape your notice, well, EVERYTIME a discussion involves either HMLT or me."
Don't you understand the word "before", go back and read what I said again. If you say (for example) "the oil price is at an oil time high therefore Lacan whatever" the argument is flawed because of the premise regardless of what I know about Lacan. That's all.

"Do let's start pointing out the "demonstrable mistakes" in my political views, shall we?

That might be the stupidest thing anyone's ever posted here, save Vimothy."
Well, you said it. Though personally I think you've surpassed him.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
You're missing the point again, broadly I don't disagree with your politics, that's why the illiterate way you put them across offends me.


Don't you understand the word "before", go back and read what I said again. If you say (for example) "the oil price is at an oil time high therefore Lacan whatever" the argument is flawed because of the premise regardless of what I know about Lacan. That's all.


Well, you said it. Though personally I think you've surpassed him.

You can say a lot of things about me, and they would be true, but "illiterate" isn't one of them. If that's really what you think, I kinda feel sorry for you.

I didn't make any Lacanian arguments based on the price of oil, which, as I just pointed out, DID peak in the U.S. recently. In that discussion (which Vimothy by no means "won"), people debated the likelihood of an economic downturn. There was nothing outrageous being claimed there by anyone, even Vimothy had some points in that thread.
 

vimothy

yurp
Now this is one odd theory:

I'm reading Clark's book at the moment, Guybrush, and I highly recommend it. Although I've not really got to the Darwinian part of his history, what I've read so far is well-written (which makes a change for economics), extensively researched (there is a wealth of data; even if you disagree with the genetic approach, the charts and tables are worth the asking price alone), and wonderfullly provocative (I mean, really).

Zhao, I think you'd like it as well. At least the first third. (It has lots of implications about quality of life in pre-industrial and developing economies vs. hunter-gatherer societies (though obviously some rather unpleasant caveats)).

>OK, but … is it true?

No.

Right, but leaving that aside, what do you think about the (water tight, on first appearances) Malthusian aspects of Clark's book, about the nature of natural economies and the fact that institutions in and of themselves cannot explain growth and escape from the Malthusian equilibrium?
 

vimothy

yurp
b) I only ever brought up how much money I made in the context of an argument where Vimothy tried to claim (you know, the old Social Darwinist fallacy) that in a free market economy, people get paid according to their intelligence level--that intelligence and skill are rewarded by capitalism, rather than privilege and already-held social capital. He seriously tried to claim that the poor are poor because they are not as intelligent as the wealthy. This is patently absurd, as I'm sure you know. I knew that I probably made far more than Vimothy did, so according to his own ideas, I thought it would be funny to point out that a loony leftist like me is far smarter than he is. Of course, I disagree with this line of reasoning and find it absurd.

I never said that. In fact, I went to great lengths to refute it:

At no point have I said that “only lazy, dumb people can’t get good jobs”. Not once. In fact I went to great lengths trying to spell out the fact that the wage you earn only reflects your ability to provide a skill and the value of that ability relative to the rest of the economy. Intelligence and energy are not necessarily reflected in your job role, nor are they necessarily reflected in the wage you earn. That should be obvious – so obvious it makes a dress wearing Geoff Capes look subtle....​
But, of course, you've already been told this repeatedly and it's clearly not going to make any difference telling you again.

Our friend Vimothy may be a stoner, but he has been far from amiable for a long long time around here, spewing some of the most hateful views I've read on the internet by someone who fancies themselves knowledgeable about economics and international relations.

I don't fancy mself as anything, actually.
 
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