We Are All Willing On The Catastrophe

[droid]

There are religions from all over the world which feature them though.

Ye-ah, and? What does apocalypse mean to Hindus?

 

[IdleRich]

Doesn't pretty much every religion feature a form of apocalypse or doomsday? Surely that indicates some sort of desire for catastrophe?

In the ones I know it's never the actual end of everything though is it? It tends to wipe out the baddies and re-set everything in a good way for the righteous (which is how everyone sees themselves) - it isn't a catastrophe for the goodies basically.

 

[version]

Ye-ah, and? What does apocalypse mean to Hindus?

I don't personally know but a quick search says that the fourth and final stage is known as Kali Yuga and that:

"Hindus believe that human civilization degenerates spiritually during the Kali Yuga. Common attributes and consequences are spiritual bankruptcy, mindless hedonism, breakdown of all social structure, greed and materialism, unrestricted egotism, afflictions and maladies of mind and body."

That sounds pretty catastrophic to me (... and not unlike the present day.)

 

[vimothy]

Let's say it is, firstly that negates the the suggestion that this is a universal drive, secondly, the people who said they wanted to 'shake things up' by voting for trump are the same group who have been screwed so completely by capitalism and a plutocratic system that they see no alternative, in that sense they are voting for change not catastrophe. It is in essence, a vote for a better world, not a worse one.

so maybe theres a group of ppl for whom trump represents the chance of doing something different, ignored blue-collar types in the US. but then there's maybe also a group of ppl for whom trump represents something more destructive. it isn't really a political choice as such it's something at a level below that. this could be like the politics of school shooters. this tendency, where does it come from? not from people, according to you -- but where?

 

[version]

In the ones I know it's never the actual end of everything though is it? It tends to wipe out the baddies and re-set everything in a good way for the righteous (which is how everyone sees themselves) - it isn't a catastrophe for the goodies basically.

It's still some sort of destruction or dismantling of the world though, isn't it? There are things which happen afterward but they all seem to feature a point at which it all comes crashing down so this idea of a collapse and complete reset must fulfill a role for people around the world.

 

[pattycakes_]

Throw social media in there and its spot on

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

it seems obvious to me that there is a nihilistic element in (perhaps "modern") man -- hence fascism, revolutionary violence, terrible war crimes, etc. isn't there a secret and awful part of us which exhults when the fetters come off?

isn't that a tautology tho - terrible things happen therefore there must be some drive to commit terrible acts

not that I think it's entirely untrue but it's more of a belief than something that can be proven

I also don't see how it can be divorced from historical context, and the material (and cultural etc) reasons things happen

civilization has always featured totalitarianism, revolutionary violence, and terrible war crimes, altho people wouldn't necessarily have recognized them in the same way we do

 

[vimothy]

I think so yes, it must be the case that, if people did X, there was some desire to commit X

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I think one could say something about humans, or some of them, always rebelling against boredom once their material needs have been taken care of

that there is some drive for excitement, for the new, different, strange (perhaps as part of the yearning for deeper meaning, tho that gets pretty far out on a theorizing limb)

thinking of the Scandinavian iteration of black metal - about as close to nihilism for nihilism's sake as one can get

young men from possibly the most stable, highest living standard pocket of the entire planet, rebelling against that very placid stability

there are some truly crazy quotes from Euronymous (the dude Varg murdered) about his love of communist Albania, as a kind of bizarro world mirror of his own homeland

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I think so yes, it must be the case that, if people did X, there was some desire to commit X

like I said, I don't think it's untrue

but how can you separate them from context

Caesar did terrible things conquering Gaul? did he and his men do those things because they desired to, or as means to an end?

you could say both, but I don't see how you can extrapolate it to a civilization-wide death drive, or it seems very tenuous

 

[vimothy]

right, exactly, think about the appeal of fascism, or islamism, or nihilist terrorism. where is that coming from? it's not nowhere

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

you know how the world work - there is no grand master plan. things happen, and people react to them, to their circumstances.

people do terrible things, for example, in war, largely because they can and/or they have to.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

right, exactly, think about the appeal of fascism, or islamism, or nihilist terrorism. where is that coming from? it's not nowhere

from poverty, humiliation, oppression?

I mean, those seem like more obvious and likely reasons than an unconscious collective death drive

 

[vimothy]

like I said, I don't think it's untrue

but how can you separate them from context

Caesar did terrible things conquering Gaul? did he and his men do those things because they desired to, or as means to an end?

you could say both, but I don't see how you can extrapolate it to a civilization-wide death drive, or it seems very tenuous

idk what you mean by civilisation-wide death drive. in certain contexts people obviously exult in murder and destruction (eg mass murder, war crimes, etc). is that something which appears from nowhere or is it part of our make up as people?

 

[vimothy]

from poverty, humiliation, oppression?

I mean, those seem like more obvious and likely reasons than an unconscious collective death drive

why should poverty give rise to violence?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

fascism - in Germany tbc - arose in large part from the harsh conditions imposed by the Allies after WWI

Islamism is undoubtedly closely tied to the subjection of large swathes of the Muslim world by the West for the last century plus

 

[vimothy]

people do terrible things, for example, in war, largely because they can and/or they have to.

evidently, but *why*?

 

[IdleRich]

It's still some sort of destruction or dismantling of the world though, isn't it? There are things which happen afterward but they all seem to feature a point at which it all comes crashing down so this idea of a collapse and complete reset must fulfill a role for people around the world.

I think a Christian awaiting The Rapture or whatever is expecting a reward and desiring bad things to happen to people they don't like. It may be related to what is being discussed here but I don't think it's the same.

 

[vimothy]

fascism - in Germany tbc - arose in large part from the harsh conditions imposed by the Allies after WWI

Islamism is undoubtedly closely tied to the subjection of large swathes of the Muslim world by the West for the last century plus

why should a particular set of circumstances give rise to fascism as opposed to somehting else?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

why should poverty give rise to violence?

because desperate people are vastly more likely to resort to violence to survive

100% not saying poor people are more inherently violent or something crazy like that. I'm talking about material circumstances.

not sure how this point can be argued against. what neighborhoods have more violent crime? where do large-scale guerrilla movements form (i.e. not the Global North)?