Election 2020

[luka]

Of course but are you being played

 

[constant escape]

Just seems like the difficulty consists of remaining outspoken against the dominant party, now that such outspokenness has been designated as deplorable (edit: and such a designation is often correct). The good cop / bad cop model works, in that it disassociates tone and temperament from actual intentions.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

we strive for the best but usually have to settle for the best option available

that kind of statement elides the actual struggle that produces the "best option available"

Biden/Harris didn't magically become the best option available, the Democratic establishment fought long and hard to make sure it was the only option available

 

[IdleRich]

And that the distance between Biden and what we want is a large enough as to register as genuine tragedy

OK... but I feel that there was a long Democratic selection procedure. And after that they picked Biden, and we all had our moan about that. And that was in the past and then there was an election and the choices were between Biden and Trump... and, the best one won, so I'm happy.
I wanted England to win the world cup, but the final was between France and Croatia... I didn't cry (again) about England losing when that finished.

 

[IdleRich]

I agree with the lads In that there's nothing to cheer about

The lads are just an imaginary chorus with the same opinion as you, I don't find your invocation of them particularly convincing except when I agree with you.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Just seems like the difficulty consists of remaining outspoken against the dominant party, now that such outspokenness has been designated as deplorable

dude it ain't a recent thing tho

it's intensified greatly in the last 30 years as beginning with Clinton the Democrats abandoned labor and embraced a watered-down form of the neoliberal program Thatcher had just carried out in Britain, but the Democratic Party has been cutting off its Left nose to spite its pro-corporate center more or less uninterrupted since WWII, always with basically the same logic - knowing who lines your pockets and "what is the left going to do, vote Republican?".

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I didn't cry (again) about England losing when that finished

that's a ridiculous analogy. winning a sports title isn't actually an important thing, besides to people directly involved.

whereas we're talking here about actual matters of life and death, and directly determining people's range of quality of life

this isn't "having a moan" it's a fully qualified "it's great the Trump lost, almost everything else about the election is terrible"

it's not about being happy or unhappy, it's about degrees of unhappiness. I would be much unhappier if Trump had won, but I'm not happy with this.

Biden sucked when he won the primaries and he sucks now. we don't have to stop saying he sucks just cos we said it during the primaries.

 

[constant escape]

I guess I'm just not quite convinced that it isn't recent. It really does seem to me like George Floyd's murder impacted culture within dominant demographics enough to usher in some integral changes. That doesn't mean this murder was any more significant, in and of itself, than however many preceded it, just that it happened to resonate more within circles that are usually well insulated from such things.

My dad has worked for CBS for over thirty years now, and whenever I overhear the conversations happening in his meetings, I hear some disarmingly candid calls for systemic change. Unless they have all mastered some kind of neoliberal virtue signaling, and don't give a damn at all, which I doubt is the case.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

it's not the lads btw, it's me and john eden (and presumably droid if he was around) so take that for whatever you think it's worth

 

[constant escape]

But hey, I could totally be trapped by my historical parameters. Maybe I just haven't yet learned about previous waves of social justice, and whether or not any promisingly integral changes being made then actually lasted.

 

[constant escape]

But the basic principle of "the more diversity you're exposed to growing up, the more egalitarian you tend to be", to whatever extent that is accurate, seems applicable on a higher order scale. More and more of a history of diverse voices requires a more and more concerted resistance, rather than plain old ignorance, no?

And if being egalitarian actually cultivates social/professional capital, then that becomes an attractor for neoliberalism, no? As much as I critique this form of orthodoxy, it seems to firmly plant the next foot forward, in terms of taking seriously a greater diversity of voices. Again, I could be naive there, and unaware of how previously similar promises didn't pan out.

 

[IdleRich]

that's a ridiculous analogy. winning a sports title isn't actually an important thing, besides to people directly involved.

Come on Padraig,, you surely understand how analogies work.

 

[IdleRich]

this isn't "having a moan" it's a fully qualified "it's great the Trump lost, almost everything else about the election is terrible"

it's not about being happy or unhappy, it's about degrees of unhappiness. I would be much unhappier if Trump had won, but I'm not happy with this.

Biden sucked when he won the primaries and he sucks now. we don't have to stop saying he sucks just cos we said it during the primaries.

Though I wasn't talking about what you were saying so much as Luka.
My point is,we already knew we didn't like the candidate. I'm happy to moan like mad about... well, everything.
But I am simply addressing the idea that it wouldn't have been worse if Trump beat Biden, a point on which I know you agree with me so...

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I guess I'm just not quite convinced that it isn't recent

what's recent - but well predating George Floyd - is an energized segment of the American left saying fuck this, we're sick of not being represented by the Democratic Party, we're going to try to force the party to represent our beliefs. and to some extent they've managed to drag the corporate Democratic establishment - kicking and screaming every step of the way - left, but they've been more successful doing that on social than on economic issues, i.e. ones not directly opposed to corporate and other major donor interests. what hasn't changed at all is the attitude of the Democratic establishment to those efforts to drag it left, which is as bitter as it's ever been if not more - that partly manifested in the refusal of the Democratic establishment to run on progressive issues, i.e. running scared from the kinds of redbaiting that was a huge factor in Trump winning Florida.

what kinds of systemic change are your dad and his colleagues calling for? workplace diversity or worker empowerment? maybe I'm wrong but I'd strongly wager the former and not the latter

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Come on Padraig,, you surely understand how analogies work.

I do. it was a bad analogy.

but leave aside the analogy - the main point is that it's ridiculous to tell people they shouldn't make absolutely true, and topical, critiques of Biden bc we're all supposed to basking in a post-election glow. obv we do agree that Biden is still preferable to Trump.

 

[IdleRich]

I think that criticism rests on a willful misunderstanding of what an analogy is (or at least your previous description of it did).
But, like I said, we're obviously on the same page about the election results so...

 

[constant escape]

While the outspoken social justice advocates on the left predate Floyd, it really does appear that this murder in particular was an amplification. Not saying you are denying that, just that what I'm talking about does seem to be quite recent, as far as I can tell.

The meetings of his I overhear are very emphatically geared toward establishing "engagement cultures" and spaces wherein everyone feels their voice is heard. And it gives me the impression that the higher-ups have something of a flame under their asses about it, which to me indicates the degree to which social justice movements have permeated the corporate ecosystem.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

And that the distance between Biden and what we want is a large enough as to register as genuine tragedy

fwiw I agree with that. there's a lot of devil in the details but the scope of it is accurate.

Trump is a greater tragedy, but greater tragedies don't preclude lesser tragedies

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

very emphatically geared toward establishing "engagement cultures" and spaces wherein everyone feels their voice is heard

exactly - those things of themselves are good as ideas (whether they turn out well depends on the execution)

but they have nothing to do with improving the conditions of workers

Uber, Lyft etc are just as happy to prominently display this kind of woke marketing as they were to pump vast sums of $ into ensuring that its precarious labor force remain classified as independent contractors - why? because that kind of non-intersectional "social justice" doesn't hurt the bottom line - if anything, probably helps it, whereas having to treat its labor force as employees would v much impact that bottom line

 

[constant escape]

And that would largely be the crux of the arguments made by the reactionary left, namely that social progress is largely tangential to, and perhaps even subterfuge precluding, economic progress. That said, I don't believe I've heard any such reactionary-left argument acknowledge that efforts for social progress have been effective. At least none come to mind right now.

So perhaps the accomplishments of social justice movements can best be appreciated within socio-economic classes, rather than across classes.