Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

[version]

So is Agamben implying that there's some false consciousness involved and that the best people to speak for Jews are gentiles?

Seems more like he's saying Jews who aren't Zionists, like this Israeli scholar making a similar argument.

Reclaiming Judaism from Zionism

It is imperative to reconnect to Jewish heritage before it was corrupted by Zionism.

electronicintifada.net

 

[thirdform]

Chopped logic and conspiracy theory.

Is arguing with a handful of people on a music forum the most useful thing you could do to deal with the serious subject at hand? Surely it's one of the least useful things? What influence do any of the posters here have, really?

YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE.

 

[thirdform]

I went through a short phase of trying out these seduction techniques. The things that I didn't like about this game-playing were (I'm not too sure whether this is a fair portrayal of the practice - it was a long time ago):

- some of the strategies that you are supposed to use work by undermining women's confidence/destabilising them: 'negative hits' for instance. I guess that blokes' naive strategy for snagging someone is 'upbuilding', not chipping away at the prey, whatever (mutual) advantage may ensue

- it becomes tempting to practise your techniques on women you have no interest in, thus leading them on (I think this is encouraged within the 'community' (?))

- I found it hard to move from the analytical thinking involved in the game-playing and begin to act spontaneously again

- I began to feel like I had got one up on the non-game player; which, even though may not actually have been the case, was probably not the healthiest state of affairs

- some techniques involve implicit suggestion; lying, really. One particularly effective one I found was to talk *as if* a long and auspicious shared future was already assumed (even on the first date) - no explicit promise or statement of intent was issued, but the value of the technique was in her feeling subconsciously as if it had been - highly misleading!

Search results for query: fannywagon

 

[Mr. Tea]

Seems more like he's saying Jews who aren't Zionists, like this Israeli scholar making a similar argument.

Reclaiming Judaism from Zionism

It is imperative to reconnect to Jewish heritage before it was corrupted by Zionism.

electronicintifada.net

Nonetheless, the vast majority of Jews (inside and outside Israel) are Zionists, so let's not fall into the trap of cherry-picking from a minority of Jews in order to claim legitimacy for a position than the great majority of them don't support.

It was a bit distasteful to see a lot of Corbynites doing this a few years ago. It just looked like a left-wing version of MAGA types swearing blind that "Trump can't be racist because he gets on well with Kanye West."

 

[Mr. Tea]

Note, though, that Zionism just means a belief that Israel should exist, and is not synonymous with unconditional support for everything Israel does. Jewish critics of Israel who accuse it of genocide are still Zionists unless they want the state to cease to exist.

 

[thirdform]

Note, though, that Zionism just means a belief that Israel should exist, and is not synonymous with unconditional support for everything Israel does. Jewish critics of Israel who accuse it of genocide are still Zionists unless they want the state to cease to exist.

how can a state have a right to exist. States are impersonal machinic entities.

This concept is so braindead. Israel exists at present, speculating about hypotheticals in the future is only useful for demagogic purposes. If Israel ceases to exist, it will be the doing (in part at least) of the Israelis and the contradictions tearing apart Israeli society. Will they be punished for it according to this logic of the free world?

Regardless, the PLO acknowledged the factual existence of the state of Israel pursuant to its 67 borders in 1988.

Which is all what this rights discourse eludes.

 

[Mr. Tea]

how can a state have a right to exist. States are impersonal machinic entities.

This concept is so braindead. Israel exists at present, speculating about hypotheticals in the future is only useful for demagogic purposes. If Israel ceases to exist, it will be the doing of the Israelis. Will they be punished for it according to this logic of the free world?

I'm not defending it, just saying what the word means.

 

[thirdform]

I'm not defending it, just saying what the word means.

I hear you! But regardless, the PLO acknowledged the factual existence of the state of Israel pursuant to its 67 borders in 1988.

Which is all what this rights discourse eludes.

Israel are sub-imperialist colonisers in that regard, (I say sub-imperialist as its capital exports are negligible) if they were a major imperialist power, they would have been able to impose control over the PLO, and in that case, something like october 7th would have been a lot less likely because the apartheid they practice now is inherently unstable both economically and ideologically.

Funny how those defending Israel use the leftist playbook of oppression when it suits them. Just goes to show that the left is just as capitalistic as the right.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I hear you! But regardless, the PLO acknowledged the factual existence of the state of Israel pursuant to its 67 borders in 1988.

Which is all what this rights discourse eludes.

Israel are sub-imperialist colonisers in that regard, (I say sub-imperialist as its capital exports are negligible) if they were a major imperialist power, they would have been able to impose control over the PLO, and in that case, something like october 7th would have been a lot less likely because the apartheid they practice now is inherently unstable both economically and ideologically.

Funny how those defending Israel use the leftist playbook of oppression when it suits them. Just goes to show that the left is just as capitalistic as the right.

Hamas's attack almost certainly could have been prevented if the IDF's top brass had listened to warnings that something big was about to go down either from their mostly female border surveillance soldiers or from Egyptian spooks, too. So it's a case of good old-fashioned sexism and racism as much as anything else, really.

 

[shakahislop]

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[thirdform]

Hamas's attack almost certainly could have been prevented if the IDF's top brass had listened to warnings that something big was about to go down either from their mostly female border surveillance soldiers or from Egyptian spooks, too. So it's a case of good old-fashioned sexism and racism as much as anything else, really.

I mean Netanyahu courted them as his ally all throughout the 2010s with the aid of qatar as middleman. a kind of lesser evil. It turns out that one can indeed bight the hand which feeds it, and throw all of the UAE/Saudi normalisation attempts all up in the air. who would have thought it!

 

[thirdform]

which, again, no imperialist power worth its salt would need to use a militia-like resistance movement to funnel in aid for regeneration. they would simply export and make the profits. Israel won't hit Iran with nuclear weapons for this same reason. The samson option is just a deranged fantasy of idealists who know deep in their hearts of hearts they are superannuated.

 

[yyaldrin]

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Seems more like he's saying Jews who aren't Zionists, like this Israeli scholar making a similar argument.

Reclaiming Judaism from Zionism

It is imperative to reconnect to Jewish heritage before it was corrupted by Zionism.

electronicintifada.net

In this age of micro-aggressions I don't see how people don't realise that publishing stuff like this, at this particular moment in time, is not feeding the racists and the haters, giving them a pattern of intellectual respectability of which they are completely undeserving.

Which nation state's existence could not be problematised, given that the concept of a nation state itself is a social construction. So if Israel's existence is to be problematised then so should every country's but where would that leave us?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

how can a state have a right to exist. States are impersonal machinic entities.

This concept is so braindead. Israel exists at present, speculating about hypotheticals in the future is only useful for demagogic purposes. If Israel ceases to exist, it will be the doing (in part at least) of the Israelis and the contradictions tearing apart Israeli society. Will they be punished for it according to this logic of the free world?

Regardless, the PLO acknowledged the factual existence of the state of Israel pursuant to its 67 borders in 1988.

Which is all what this rights discourse eludes.

X has a right to exist just means it's immoral to destroy X.

Israel could point at your argument and say neither Palestine nor Gaza have a right to exist.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Which nation state's existence could not be problematised, given that the concept of a nation state itself is a social construction. So if Israel's existence is to be problematised then so should every country's but where would that leave us?

Isn't it just a formalisation of natural tribal separatism?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Isn't it just a formalisation of natural tribal separatism?

Like

 

[thirdform]

X has a right to exist just means it's immoral to destroy X.

Israel could point at your argument and say neither Palestine nor Gaza have a right to exist.

They could indeed, but so what? I don't respect their moral compass. It's only you guys who are offended by the regression from universalism to human rights. For most of us, it's a logical consequence of the historical death of democracy. Granted, people need to have brains for that, something you evidently don't, because if you did, you would realise that the equivocation you made puts you in the position of adopting the idea that if Israel can be proven to be immoral, then it is moral to destroy it. Whereas my original statement made no such claim.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

They could indeed, but so what? I don't respect their moral compass. It's only you guys who are offended by the regression from universalism to human rights. For most of us, it's a logical consequence of the historical death of democracy. Granted, people need to have brains for that, something you evidently don't.

Another way of looking at it is that a state will not want to give another state a right to exist if that other state doesn't recognise it itself. This is why Israel reluctant to allow Palestine to have full statehood as Palestine doesn't want to acknowledge Israel's statehood in turn. All of these universal rights are universal not necessarily because of God but because they have been negotiated and discussed widely enough to represent a communal agreement. By ignoring a right that has been agreed by communal agreement one rejects the authority of the wider community but thereby also rejects one's status within it.

 

[thirdform]

every admission is a confession, Corneliu! Apologies your paralytic dad didn't teach you that, but if he wasn't paralytic, he would have been sober and muslim...