Jeremy Corbyn

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...party-fallout-ken-livingstone-suspension-live

Anyone with any sense (as Kriss points out) doesn't throw around glib comparisons between the nazis & israel, especially in the middle of an anti-semitism row but, it must be said, Livingstone is objectively, factually correct regarding zionist collaboration with Hitler.

Surely I don't need to point out that the fact that a statement is "factually correct" doesn't mean it can't be used to express bigotry or promote hatred, depending on the context and how it's expressed.

I actually don't dislike Livingstone at all, but I find it disheartening to see such a veteran politician display such poor judgement. Is being "factually correct" really worth offending so many people and ultimately bringing about your suspension from the party?
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Forged in the far flung celtic fringes of empire, two misunderstood men, so alike, and yet, so different. One grew up listening to jungle in Swansea the other played drum and bass in Dublin. Their fates destined to be forever entwined

this made me splutter. the novel would be a masterpiece.

http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/n...ith-antisemitism-from-the-jewish-socialists-g think this is making some pretty obvious points fairly well, even if it doesn't engage explicitly with what has happened over the past week.

I'm sure this has been mentioned over the preceding few pages already somewhere (edit: ah, I see Droid posted a couple of times about this above), but why the hell is someone in Labour not calling upon the Tory party to back up its alleged stance of anti-racism with action, and suspend either/both Cameron and Johnson for the disgusting dogwhistle racist comments they've made over the past few weeks (about Sadiq Khan and Obama respectively)? Seems like, from a pragmatic point of view, Labour is just rolling over and taking a kicking, when calling for a level playing field, where ALL dubious comments relating to race are punished. Seems to be an extremely strong and obvious strategy. Unless I'm being naive and there's some reason not to do this.

Agree with Tea that Livingstone's comments are just depressingly and stupidly needless (and wilfully offensive in a very genuine way to lots of people, not that the Tories and Telegraph comments actually give a shit about that, obvs) rather than anything else. But he needs to go because he's a liability and cares more about his own ego and 'being right' than he does about helping Labour and Corbyn get rid of the Tory scourge.
 
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Benny B

Well-known member
Why is that a bad thing? Sounds eminently sensible to me, and is what most prostitutes want, as I understand it.


Oh really? How do u know that?

Sorry tea i'll get back to you on this later (im on holiday right now). Interested to see what dissensus thinks about this though. Maybe another thread?
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Def needs another thread I think. I don't even know clearly what I think about this issue, other than what's most painfully apparent is how infrequently sex workers themselves are consulted about their thoughts on the issue of decriminalisation, rather than others speaking 'for' them (sometimes/often based upon the idea that a shared gender is enough for one to act as a spokesperson for all women, as though no other lines of division between people exist [also on a side note, fact that big proportion of sex workers in UK are men seems often to be completely forgotten in the debate]). As such, this is worth reading: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2016/03/sex-work-jeremy-corbyn-money
 
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Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Oh really? How do u know that?

Sorry tea i'll get back to you on this later (im on holiday right now). Interested to see what dissensus thinks about this though. Maybe another thread?

Baboon's hit the nail on the head - the debate does tend to be dominated by people with no experience of sex work who think they can speak on behalf of sex workers. I've read that in Scandinavia, a lot of prostitutes are highly critical of the so-called Nordic model (selling sex is legal but buying it is illegal) because punters are naturally afraid of prosecution and therefore give false names, which just makes everything riskier for the prostitutes. I believe the Collective of English Prostitutes takes basically the same stance.

Really I see it as symptomatic of an actually fairly reactionary school of academic feminism that simultaneously infantilizes women (by assuming they know what's best for sex workers and can speak for them) and demonizes men (by conflating sexual desire, which is very often more about intimacy than it is about sex, in the case of men who visit prostitutes) with violence. Or it's just good old Victorian prudery dressed up as feminism.

Edit: sorry, yes, does need its own thread.
 
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droid

Well-known member
Statement from Independent Jewish voices:

We are equally concerned, however, by the way in which such accusations are deployed politically – whether by the press, the Conservative Party, opponents of Corbyn’s leadership within Labour, or by those seeking to counter criticism of the actions of the Israeli government. The current climate is quickly coming to resemble a witch-hunt, in which statements and associations, some going back years, are being put under the microscope.

We appreciate the concern for anti-Jewish prejudice – a concern which we share. We are committed to our principles of opposition to all forms of racism, including antisemitism, anti-Arab racism or Islamophobia, in any circumstance. We are therefore dismayed by a lack of parallel attention to other forms of racial and religious bigotry, particularly given the current climate of growing Islamophobia across Europe. In the same week that the government refused to admit 3000 unaccompanied minor refugees to Britain, we cannot help but note the highly disproportionate attention paid in the media to errors of speech rather than errors of deed.

https://ijv.org.uk/2016/05/01/ijv-statement-on-allegations-of-antisemitism-in-the-labour-party/
 

droid

Well-known member
Finkelstein!

Did you create the controversial image that Naz Shah reposted?

I’m not adept enough with computers to compose any image. But I did post the map on my website in 2014. An email correspondent must have sent it. It was, and still is, funny. Were it not for the current political context, nobody would have noticed Shah’s reposting of it either. Otherwise, you’d have to be humourless. These sorts of jokes are a commonplace in the U.S. So, we have this joke: Why doesn’t Israel become the 51st state? Answer: Because then, it would only have two senators. As crazy as the discourse on Israel is in America, at least we still have a sense of humour. It’s inconceivable that any politician in the U.S. would be crucified for posting such a map.

Shah’s posting of that image has been presented as an endorsement by her of a ‘chilling “transportation” policy’, while John Mann MP has compared her to Eichmann.


Frankly, I find that obscene. It’s doubtful these Holocaust-mongers have a clue what the deportations were, or of the horrors that attended them. I remember my late mother describing her deportation. She was in the Warsaw Ghetto. The survivors of the Ghetto Uprising, about 30,000 Jews, were deported to Maijdanek concentration camp. They were herded into railroad cars. My mother was sitting in the railroad car next to a woman who had her child. And the woman – I know it will shock you – the woman suffocated her infant child to death in front of my mother. She suffocated her child, rather than take her to where they were going. That’s what it meant to be deported. To compare that to someone posting a light-hearted, innocuous cartoon making a little joke about how Israel is in thrall to the U.S., or vice versa…it’s sick. What are they doing? Don’t they have any respect for the dead? All these desiccated Labour apparatchiks, dragging the Nazi holocaust through the mud for the sake of their petty jostling for power and position. Have they no shame?

https://opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-...h-scholar-behind-labour-s-antisemitism-scanda
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
One liberal American Jew gets the joke, ergo no-one has the right not to like it and they're all just going out of their way to be offended?
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Well, if Norman Finkelstein says it's OK, then obviously it's OK. Phew. Everybody at ease.
 

luka

Well-known member
Craner is a psychological anomaly. He's as anglo-saxon as they come but cos he's got a big nose and a yen for books he thinks he can speak for all Jews
 

luka

Well-known member
He genuinely believes his oversized snozz gives him a unique insight into the semitic psyche
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
There's also the fact that it's probably going to look a little different coming from a British Muslim than it does coming from an American Jew.

Your point stands but equally you are old enough to know who finkelstein is

He must have passed me by. But OK, fine, omit the word 'liberal' from that post if you like. If he's written a book called 'The Holocaust Industry' then he's clearly not your run-of-the-mill pro-Israeli Jew, at any rate.
 
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