First of all, tea, none of what's been said in this thread has changed my feelings towards you. As I said before, I respect your right to your opinion. Some of which I feel the need to put up a contrary opinion against because, well, that's just how it goes on bbs' and it would be boring if we all agreed and we would have to change the site name. You're a solid dude and also one of the low key funniest people on here. But because of where we're both at, we're bound to get into it if we open up the worm can. It never gets anywhere because we're too attached to our views and therefore tend to filter what the other one says into our projection of them and ignore points that might actually be an overlap in our venn diagram. Personally I don't believe science and mysticism are mutuly exclusive and you said something similar further back in the thread. Where your pov expresses itself with rational, grounded and sensical explanations. Mine can be more subjective and open to interpretation. It doesn't rely on sense as much as imagination. So yeah that leaves me open to all kinds of swaying in the wrong direction, but please believe me that I am in no way enamoured with either Icke or Jones. But, I would never write them off as abhorrent individuals who would be better erased from society. I just don't work like that. I like to try to have compassion for people and understand how they came to be who they are and see the good in them whenever possible. But having said that, I barely spent any time digging into either guy at all anyway. Ultimately I think they're an inevitable symptom of our times and there is a big market for those kinds of people. It's just a shame that it tends to be only the extremists from that camp who ever get the air time that could be given to much more grounded and rational people. I'd say Chris Hedges, John Pilger and people like that with plenty of in the field experience would be much more healthy figureheads for a truther movement, but I just don't see that happening because they don't have the same type of charisma that sells the way Jones and Icke do. There is one guy, a comedian, Jimmy Dore who has a podcast and appears on stuff like the Joe Rogan podcast who is pretty good at getting irate and keeping it funny. And in fact I think that's the key to dealing with these issues, is to have a sense of humour about it to make your ranting palatable, which I of course lack. But yeah. Anyway no hard feelings.