Morality/Ethics/Guilt/etc

[grizzleb]

Recently been thinking (alot) about my own relationship with past deeds, personal character and my ability to be a dick to people in a myriad of ways, some intentional, some unintentional, some through attempts not to be a dick, some by my own natural cuntishness. Just wondering how other people on the forum deal with ethical problems (and more specifically, problems of character) in their own lives and facing up to their own ineptitude (or not as it may be) at 'doing the right thing'. I'm not really sure what this thread is about but I'm in need of a vent and wasn't sure if there was any other threads like this.

 

[slowtrain]

Good idea for a thread.

Generally I try to be really lovely to everyone and very forgiving.

I would like to elaborate on this when I am not exhausted out of my brain.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Do What Thou Wilt, shall be the Whole of the Law​

 

[Mr. Tea]

(I don't actually live my life by this dictum, though I'm always tempted to give it a whirl, even if just for a few days. I suspect that if you actually knew Crowley he was probably an unbearable penis.)

 

[luka]

obviously my character is a bit weird and overbearing. i feel guilty becasue i tell people off a lot, just be a bit too dominating or whatever in conversations. take up all the oxygen. i enjoy myself so much when im in full swing that i tend to go overboard. but then i dont actually really care, which i also feel vaguely uneasy about.

 

[luka]

my ego is a bit ridiculous. i always think i know best and know more and can read everyone like a book. i try and use humour to make this less offensive, humour and self-awareness

 

[baboon2004]

Recently been thinking (alot) about my own relationship with past deeds, personal character and my ability to be a dick to people in a myriad of ways, some intentional, some unintentional, some through attempts not to be a dick, some by my own natural cuntishness. Just wondering how other people on the forum deal with ethical problems (and more specifically, problems of character) in their own lives and facing up to their own ineptitude (or not as it may be) at 'doing the right thing'. I'm not really sure what this thread is about but I'm in need of a vent and wasn't sure if there was any other threads like this.

Good thread. Everyone has the potential to be a total dick to others for various reasons, I think. Yeah, think it's more of a question of character than abstract ethics as you say - taming/dealing with those impulses everyone has towards doing things that might impact badly upon others, though aggression, need to bolster one's own self-esteem, lack of empathy etc.

First thing I always think is to acknowledge that those things exist. i find most times I'm an unutterable cunt have something to do with me feeling my self-esteem compromised/attacked.

 

[grizzleb]

Yeah, part of my motivation for this was that in a recent attempted to be more outgoing and less dour, resulted in me just becoming overbearing and tiresome in my unceasing conversation. In attempting to try and improve my way of being with others I ended up just being a dick in a different way. The problem seems to be that essentially you can't really step outside of your own character and history. I'll never be one of these types of people who just makes people feel at ease in social situations. But being a bit off and akward, or overbearing, or whatever doesn't seem like something that I should just write off and accept. I dunno. And then there's the question of who I'm trying to improve my character for - other people or myself? So then I get caught in the trap of my own selfishness again. Like you say Hywel, I guess the first step is at least some recognition of this problematic. It's difficult to really find a way beyond that but at least some recognition is a small step.

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

its hard to be a 'good' person when we tend to think being a 'bad' person = success.

do people still care about being 'good' people? i dont think i see it reflected in much of our art/media anymore.

 

[baboon2004]

You're not dour! Plus I'd say you're pretty good socially - you're easygoing in a way that appeals to most people. Tbh I wouldn't try to change yourself - that's not meant in a glib way either.

Also I wouldn't underestimate how overbearing and tiresome a lot of people find those who are ostensibly 'popular' or 'easy'. And those people are frequently just corresponding to societal norms, rather than having any real personality of their own (particularly at uni, I have to say - context is everything). If your're liked by absolutely everyone, you must be doing something wrong, basically - most probably, spending all your time getting others to like you, and this will eventually destroy any sense of who you actually are away from those pressures. Seen it close up lots of times...

Yeah, part of my motivation for this was that in a recent attempted to be more outgoing and less dour, resulted in me just becoming overbearing and tiresome in my unceasing conversation. In attempting to try and improve my way of being with others I ended up just being a dick in a different way. The problem seems to be that essentially you can't really step outside of your own character and history. I'll never be one of these types of people who just makes people feel at ease in social situations. But being a bit off and akward, or overbearing, or whatever doesn't seem like something that I should just write off and accept. I dunno. And then there's the question of who I'm trying to improve my character for - other people or myself? So then I get caught in the trap of my own selfishness again. Like you say Hywel, I guess the first step is at least some recognition of this problematic. It's difficult to really find a way beyond that but at least some recognition is a small step.

 

[baboon2004]

its hard to be a 'good' person when we tend to think being a 'bad' person = success.

do people still care about being 'good' people? i dont think i see it reflected in much of our art/media anymore.

I think presumed morality is still definitely a driving factor in our society, it's just that normative morality doesn't correspond much to what's actually right or wrong*.

To be a success in any given society, you often have to play by its rules - be amoral rather than immoral, just follow its moral code and break it where you can get away with it/hope that people don't notice. But true that in certain industries, being a cunt does help a lot.

* eg the way people get so moral about someone 'not working enough', even when it doesn't affect them. Still stuck in a stupid Protestant mindset.

 

[mistersloane]

Yeah I didnt find you dour, quite the opposite.

It's quite hard if you havent been out or social for a while then try to go out - to me in that state everyone seems too up in my face, too close, and I over compensate. It wears off though, the people being too close stuff, keep at it I'd say and the self-consciousness wears off after a bit. Might take a few years though, it took me til I was about 30.

 

[baboon2004]

absolutely , it's difficult to be really yourself til you've had enough time to get super-bored of constantly accounting for others. I reckon it's well worth getting used to some people not getting you/not liking you (though most probably they don't understand who you are anyways, cos likely they don't even get who they are), cos they always will, and not giving much of a shit. Not in a hostile way, just in a shoulder-shrugging way.

 

[Mr. Tea]

It's a real breakthrough moment in anyone's personal development when they realise there are more important things in life than being liked by everyone they meet.

 

[zhao]

I suspect that if you actually knew Crowley he was probably an unbearable penis.

from every personal account i have ever read, he was a true gent who deeply, deeply cared about those around him and humanity at large.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Sure, if you ignore the snobbery, the racism, the misogyny...my understanding is that was a colossal egotist wrapped up in his own myth and concerned mainly with manipulating others, fucking anyone and anything he fancied and getting off his tits.

 

[grizzleb]

It's a real breakthrough moment in anyone's personal development when they realise there are more important things in life than being liked by everyone they meet.

Of course, but not being a dick to people is important too. How you draw the line between these two is the thing. Relevant here I think is the way that all too often really non-moral tendencies, characteristics, actions have begun to aquire a moral status. Being boring, not enjoying oneself, or lacking humour, all these things have a moral status when people talk about others. It's interesting.

edit: and cheers for the kind words people...

 

[zhao]

i truly believe that it is important to be kind.

because we are alive for 80 years and that's it. we are against the system and there is a lot of fucked up shit to be angry about in the world, but on a personal level, and especially BECAUSE of all the terrible shit in the world, it is important to create good vibes, and connections.

with that said i've been very withdrawn socially, partly by choice, lately... i'm at risk of drifting off from my friends and becoming isolated. i never seem to have time (and a lot of times desire) to go to social functions and parties...

but still, understanding and inclusion is key.

an extreme example: me and GF were talking about Neo-Nazis. she was saying most on the left have only (understandable) hatred toward them, and just want them to be locked up or even killed. but if we really take a step back and look at it for what it is, they are only ignorant, frustrated and suffering people. they are still human just like us. only they grew up in crap towns and never went to school, have no jobs and are dirt poor, and their frustration become extremely misguided. and if we as society ostracize and demonize them the situation can only get worse. I'm not saying they should not be criminalized or thrown into jail, but in the larger picture, ultimately, the key, as always, very VERY difficult as it might seem, is education, understanding, and inclusion.

theoretically. that is. i've no idea how to educate or include when it comes to neo-nazis IRL.

 

[mistersloane]

absolutely , it's difficult to be really yourself til you've had enough time to get super-bored of constantly accounting for others.

That's really brilliantly put.

 

[simon silverdollar]

my dad's advice to me when i was younger was that the way to find happiness/freedom is to realise how little other people really care what you do or say.

i think, as others have said, that the important thing is just to be kind and decent. being a bit loud or overbearing or withdrawn or whatever doesn't matter. if kindness and decency isn't enough for others then fuck em

anyway, back to guilt. i've only felt real strong guilt once, and it's crazy innit. more like a physical condition than an emotion really.