The Middle East/Islam as a trope in electronic music

[padraig (u.s.)]

but look, to the real point. it's not like on the one side there's purely objective fact and on the other side there's purely subjective opinion and there's nothing in between. in an ultimate sense yes, all things which cannot be physically measured, like speed or mass or density, are subjective. but obviously in practice when it comes to things which cannot be objectively measured humans usually try to find ways, with varying success, to agree on what qualities make something good or useful or whatever. which is what you're saying, basically, only you're doing this very zhao thing where you accuse everyone of having a crazy extreme view that no one (here, or probably anywhere) actually holds.

when I say "all opinions about art are ultimately subjective" (which is what kicked off this shitfest to begin with) what I mean is they're value judgments. if you want me to qualify that by saying that all such judgments are basically determined by our circumstances - that we're the product of our influences (including genes) - then yes, absolutely. I didn't say that to begin with b/c it should be assumed.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

so when you say that criteria can developed for any kind of art, or anything that's not a measurable quality, hell yeah they can. they're by definition not objective, but they are agreed upon (tacitly or officially) criteria by which to judge things. the difference from objective facts - like, say, the speed of light - is that they can be argued against. to take an extreme example - virtually everyone who's ever listened to rap would agree that Illmatic is not terrible. some people might say it's overrated or not the best rap LP ever, but not terrible. if someone did, you or I could cite many reasons why they were wrong but we couldn't definitively prove they were wrong like they we could if someone said the speed of light was 12 km/h. do you see the difference? and that I actually agree with your real point about acknowledging the incapability our external influences on our subjective opinions?

also, you're really not helping your case with your super-crazy pasta example

 

[sufi]

i think the pasta and dominos pizza example is quite illuminating actually, with ref to the original question anyway.

I reckon the ways that the middle east/islam trope is adopted by musicians with more or less actual exposure/understanding is interesting,
look at the cure & the clash (i never knew that fire in cairo was historical), & what they think is oriental compared to more modern artists who simply C&P what they reckon sounds exotic thru their sampler

• the beats on MIA sound more indian to me (though the flute could be Mid-eastern, maybe),
• the egyptian horn could be a vuvuzela for all i know

dominos pizza is a different beast to old school italian pizza, in a different context, who can say if it's better or worse at what it sets out to do than sainsbury finest italian style, or franco feckin manca?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Rock the Casbah is a weird one, somehow it wound up being almost literally the theme song for Gulf War I, which I'm sure absolutely horrified Joe Strummer and also I guess says something how much interpretations of art can differ from an artist's original intent, tho I'm sure someone somewhere also played it during Arab Spring. as for The Cure, of course there's also Killing An Arab, which is like the fucking ur-text of complex meta-relationships with Orientalism in modern pop music, from the title to the (incredibly catchy) snake charmer type beginning riff to the source novel to Camus himself and his own complex relationship with Algeria.

what they think is oriental compared to more modern artists who simply C&P what they reckon sounds exotic thru their sampler

I dunno I think these are pretty much the same thing, in one way it doesn't even matter where the original sample is from but how it's used (which sometimes coincide, like Muslimgauze). like, in Egyptian Empire even if the sample was just a distorted foghorn (or a vuvuzuela, or whatever) the salient point is still the presentation.

 

[Mr. Tea]

MIA is from a British-Sri Lankan family, isn't she? So a more subcontinental influence in her music makes sense.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

also I was thinking about this the other day, there is an Orientalist strand running through late 80s afrocentric rap, via half-baked egyptology. things like X-Clan. and this

seriously go listen to To The East Blackwards. in between the militancy + cod mysticism + 3rd Bass disses (+ homophobia) there are all manner of references to Ra and sarcophogi and papyrus and the Nile. obv it's not quite the same as most of what we're talking about here cos they're claiming Egypt as an afrocentric thing but at the same time it's pretty exotic and the vocab/style they use to talk it about it is totally Indiana Jones if you get me. obv 5%/NOI in general have a weird relation to Islam/Middle East which is kinda reflected in rap sometimes (black asiatic man etc)

and then of course there's also this
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/bcuAw77J8_Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[zhao]

well my taste has certainly been ruined: no italian pizza can compete with american pies-on-steroids with 3 cheeses and 27 toppings... no rigid adherence to tradition there!

 

[Mr. Tea]

in an ultimate sense yes, all things which cannot be physically measured, like speed or mass or density, are subjective. but obviously in practice when it comes to things which cannot be objectively measured humans usually try to find ways, with varying success, to agree on what qualities make something good or useful or whatever.

OK, looks like we're getting close to something like:

1) Standards by which created things are judged are subjective, although universally or almost universally agreed on, especially by specialists in the relevant genre. (E.g. you cannot prove ab initio that complex, challenging rap lyrics are better than simple, asinine ones, or that a rich tomato sauce is better than a watery one, but anyone who knows/cares about hip-hop or Italian food will agree that it is.)

2) The success or failure of any given product can however be judged by how closely it adheres to that genre's accepted standards in a more or less objective way.

3) The relative merits of different genres are difficult or impossible to analyse objectively, and come down basically to subjective taste.

The big problem with 2) of course is that different people may give different weight to the universal-subjective standards. One person may think lyrics are all-important in hip-hop while for another, equally qualified fan, flow is much more important than lyrics.

also I was thinking about this the other day, there is an Orientalist strand running through late 80s afrocentric rap, via half-baked egyptology. things like X-Clan. and this

The fascination that Egypt exerts for Afro-centrists/black nationalists never fails to astound me. There are Egyptian tombs decorated with paintings of Egyptian solders capturing black slaves, FFS.

Edit: padraig, that 'Arab Money' video is like a high-budget version of something you might see on Goodness Gracious Me or The Real McCoy. You might not get this unless you're familiar with occasionally amusing ethnic-themed BBC sketch comedies from the 1990s.

 

[sufi]

well my taste has certainly been ruined: no italian pizza can compete with american pies-on-steroids with 3 cheeses and 27 toppings... no rigid adherence to tradition there!

check out this absolute monstrosity
http://eater.com/archives/2012/04/2...eseburgers-chicken-nuggets-to-pizza-crust.php - only available in the middle east!!!

 

[Mr. Tea]

Pretty much a real-life version of an Onion gag: http://www.theonion.com/articles/pizza-huts-new-pizza-lovers-pizza-topped-with-smal,9891/

 

[luka]

do you lot think it is demonstrable, in an objective sense, based on form and physical attributes, that Burial's first album is above average in terms of originality, in terms of emotive power, in terms of quality, compared to most of the UGK coming out at the time?

no ukg was coming out at the time. the scene was dead. burial is in part a homage to ukg and as he has always stated his music is but a pale imitation. this is objective fact. otherwise, all of you are mad. what a stupid arguement.

 

[luka]

This is what I believe:

'That I am I.'

'That my soul is a dark forest.'

'That my known self will never be more than a little clearing in the forest.'

'That gods, strange gods, come forth from the forest into the clearing of my known self, and then go back.'

'That I must have the courage to let them come and go.'

'That I will never let mankind put anything over me, but that I will try always to recognize and submit to the gods in me and the gods in other men and women.'

There is my creed. He who runs may read. He who prefers to crawl, or to go by gasoline, can call it rot.

Then for a 'list'. It is rather fun to play at Benjamin.

1. TEMPERANCE

Eat and carouse with Bacchus, or munch dry bread with Jesus, but don't sit down without one of the gods.

2. SILENCE

Be still when you have nothing to say; when genuine passion moves you, say what you've got to say, and say it hot.

3. ORDER

Know that you are responsible to the gods inside you and to the men in whom the gods are manifest. Recognize your superiors and your inferiors, according to the gods. This is the root of all order.

4. RESOLUTION

Resolve to abide by your own deepest promptings, and to sacrifice the smaller thing to the greater. Kill when you must, and be killed the same: the must coming from the gods inside you, or from the men in whom you recognize the Holy Ghost.

5. FRUGALITY

Demand nothing; accept what you see fit. Don't waste your pride or squander your emotion.

6. INDUSTRY

Lose no time with ideals; serve the Holy Ghost; never serve mankind.

7. SINCERITY

To be sincere is to remember that I am I, and that the other man is not me.

8. JUSTICE

The only justice is to follow the sincere intuition of the soul, angry or gentle. Anger is just, and pity is just, but judgment is never just.

9. MODERATION

Beware of absolutes. There are many gods.

10. CLEANLINESS

Don't be too clean. It impoverishes the blood.

11. TRANQUILITY

The soul has many motions, many gods come and go. Try and find your deepest issue, in every confusion, and abide by that. Obey the man in whom you recognize the Holy Ghost; command when your honour comes to command.

12. CHASTITY

Never 'use' venery at all. Follow your passional impulse, if it be answered in the other being; but never have any motive in mind, neither offspring nor health nor even pleasure, nor even service. Only know that 'venery' is of the great gods. An offering-up of yourself to the very great gods, the dark ones, and nothing else.

13. HUMILITY

See all men and women according to the Holy Ghost that is within them. Never yield before the barren.

NEVER 'USE' VENERY AT ALL

 

[luka]

Recognize your superiors and your inferiors, according to the gods. This is the root of all order.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Where do ELVES stand in the cosmic pecking order?

 

[CrowleyHead]

Uhm... The Cure's "Killing An Arab" is just a really really cheap and easy rewrite of Camus, and probably more reflective of literary taste than any concern with that area of the world? TBH, Robert Smith seems the least globally aware songwriter I know of.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

anyone who knows/cares about [given topic] will agree that it is...The big problem with 2) of course is that different people may give different weight to the universal-subjective standards

pretty much, except what you're describing is like the platonic ideal. in reality, those standards usually aren't universally agreed upon, or they're disputed, insufficient, poorly defined, etc. multiple sets of standards may overlap each other. yunno, lots of things. I was just describing the mechanism by which those standards are developed. or something. let's stop talking about this.

 

[mistersloane]

*bows to franklin and lawrence, and does a little diddy dance at luka*

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

"Killing An Arab" is just a really really cheap and easy rewrite of Camus, and probably more reflective of literary taste than any concern with that area of the world?

most of this stuff (as well as classic Orientalism) has zero concern with "that part of the world" as anything other than a fantasy. that's kind of the point.

 

[Mr. Tea]

pretty much, except what you're describing is like the platonic ideal. in reality, those standards usually aren't universally agreed upon, or they're disputed, insufficient, poorly defined, etc. multiple sets of standards may overlap each other. yunno, lots of things. I was just describing the mechanism by which those standards are developed. or something. let's stop talking about this.

OK I really will drop this, promise, just wanted to say that I think you're saying more or less the same thing I did only more forcefully, i.e. some criterion that one person holds to be very important might be completely meaningless to someone else. I guess I was talking bollocks about point 2) being necessarily objective as well, since you can easily imagine for example two people who both think lyrics are important but who disagree about whether the lyrics to any one song are any good.

 

[zhao]

Roska's stellar collaboration with Algerian Grandmother of Rai

https://soundcloud.com/djzhao/mohammed-ay-sidi-roska-squark

what the shit. SC script don't work so just go here: https://soundcloud.com/djzhao/mohammed-ay-sidi-roska-squark