Fair point. Comparisons with explicitly racist parties aren't accurate. I think the stuff about the generalised point about populism holds though. There's a lot of outgrouping and lot of hostility directed towards them. Blairites, bankers, elites, and so on. I think in terms of emotional tone that's an accurate description.
the socialism of fools
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Fair point. Comparisons with explicitly racist parties aren't accurate. I think the stuff about the generalised point about populism holds though. There's a lot of outgrouping and lot of hostility directed towards them. Blairites, bankers, elites, and so on. I think in terms of emotional tone that's an accurate description.
luka
Well-known member
This notion that the most powerful people on the planet constitute an out group in the same way that 'illegal immigrants' or Jews or what have you, is not one I find terribly convincing. Is questioning the right of a billionaire to be a billionaire the same as denying the right of Jews to be Jewish? I dunno lads. Do you want to conflate the idea of a class enemy with a race enemy? The Elder of Zion with Das Kapital? It feels like a very flimsy argument
I'll link to this piece again, see what you make of it.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...itism-corbynism-must-change-way-it-sees-world
It's a few years old now but succinct.
the problems in British society, and capitalist society more generally, can be explained by the conscious actions of a parasitical “1 per cent” draining the vitality from the “real economy.” This “global elite” do not produce anything tangible but merely make money out of money through their control of the banks and the international financial system. They are thus regarded as an irrational excrescence undermining what would otherwise be a rationally ordered, naturally benevolent productive society.
The implication of Corbyn’s condemnation of those who have “stitched up” the political and economic system “to line the pockets of their friends” is that if only this unproductive excess could be somehow removed, “socialism” would appear, as if by magic. The task of a political movement is, therefore, to identify the guilty parties held to be personally responsible for the current malaise, and to remove them from the organic community of the productive.
This kind of productivist worldview did not originate with Corbynism. Indeed, his rise is more a result of its revival than its cause. It was widespread amongst the Occupy movement, and can also be found in various forms amongst the hard right, including the Leave campaign and Donald Trump – from whom Corbyn borrowed the “rigged system” conceit. A recent story in the Daily Telegraph about George Soros’s supposed “secret plot to thwart Brexit” is a case in point.
The roots of such “personalised critiques” of capitalism can be traced back to vulgar understandings of Marx’s so-called “labour theory of value” – understandings which it was Postone’s life’s work to overturn. They do not necessarily have to lead to anti-semitism, but it does not take much for the search for those “rigging the system” to alight on the “rootless ‘cosmopolitan” Jew, forever holding the productive community to ransom though his control of the financial system.
The same pattern is found on a geopolitical level when it comes to Israel. The inordinate focus on the crimes of Israel within the British left – far outweighing the attention given to the chemical slaughter currently inflicted by Bashar al-Assad for example – results from the portrayal of Israel as the evil “1 per cent” of the global community, a state whose very existence is the source of all suffering in the Middle East, if not the world.
Postone’s alternative reading of Marx shows us that a critique of capitalism which focuses only on the machinations of the “1 per cent” fails to understand how fundamentally capitalist social relations shape the way in which we live – capitalists and bankers included. It does not grasp the extent to which “real” industrious production and intangible “abstract” finance are inextricably entwined. The pursuit of profit is not a choice in capitalism, but a compulsion. Failing to do so leads to bankruptcy, starvation and death. Nor are banks and the international financial sector an unproductive parasitical outgrowth undermining the vitality of the “real” national economy. They are that economy’s precondition.
The results of this incessant pursuit of profit, facilitated by the global movement of money, are by no means equal, and to that extent Corbyn and his supporters are right to highlight the widespread economic disparities in society. Indeed, the danger of conspiratorial thinking on the left is that it does in some ways “reflect a critical impulse”, a suspicion about the world and its forms of power.
It is also why, as the sociologist David Hirsh has argued, anti-semitism can present itself as a progressive and emancipatory force, a valiant attempt to rid the world of the evils dragging it down. It replicates the way that anti-migrant racism has become a sign of one’s commitment to a downtrodden “white working class” in the aftermath of Brexit.
This stuff has come to mind for me when I've looked on Corbyn social media sites and seen people going on en masse about the Rothschilds, Soros, or the global banking system. Momentum did a video recently telling people to basically leave it out with the Rothschild stuff (which was a good effort, I can't knock it). Same thing comes to mind when I see that horrible women from The Canary appearing on David Icke-related shows.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...itism-corbynism-must-change-way-it-sees-world
It's a few years old now but succinct.
the problems in British society, and capitalist society more generally, can be explained by the conscious actions of a parasitical “1 per cent” draining the vitality from the “real economy.” This “global elite” do not produce anything tangible but merely make money out of money through their control of the banks and the international financial system. They are thus regarded as an irrational excrescence undermining what would otherwise be a rationally ordered, naturally benevolent productive society.
The implication of Corbyn’s condemnation of those who have “stitched up” the political and economic system “to line the pockets of their friends” is that if only this unproductive excess could be somehow removed, “socialism” would appear, as if by magic. The task of a political movement is, therefore, to identify the guilty parties held to be personally responsible for the current malaise, and to remove them from the organic community of the productive.
This kind of productivist worldview did not originate with Corbynism. Indeed, his rise is more a result of its revival than its cause. It was widespread amongst the Occupy movement, and can also be found in various forms amongst the hard right, including the Leave campaign and Donald Trump – from whom Corbyn borrowed the “rigged system” conceit. A recent story in the Daily Telegraph about George Soros’s supposed “secret plot to thwart Brexit” is a case in point.
The roots of such “personalised critiques” of capitalism can be traced back to vulgar understandings of Marx’s so-called “labour theory of value” – understandings which it was Postone’s life’s work to overturn. They do not necessarily have to lead to anti-semitism, but it does not take much for the search for those “rigging the system” to alight on the “rootless ‘cosmopolitan” Jew, forever holding the productive community to ransom though his control of the financial system.
The same pattern is found on a geopolitical level when it comes to Israel. The inordinate focus on the crimes of Israel within the British left – far outweighing the attention given to the chemical slaughter currently inflicted by Bashar al-Assad for example – results from the portrayal of Israel as the evil “1 per cent” of the global community, a state whose very existence is the source of all suffering in the Middle East, if not the world.
Postone’s alternative reading of Marx shows us that a critique of capitalism which focuses only on the machinations of the “1 per cent” fails to understand how fundamentally capitalist social relations shape the way in which we live – capitalists and bankers included. It does not grasp the extent to which “real” industrious production and intangible “abstract” finance are inextricably entwined. The pursuit of profit is not a choice in capitalism, but a compulsion. Failing to do so leads to bankruptcy, starvation and death. Nor are banks and the international financial sector an unproductive parasitical outgrowth undermining the vitality of the “real” national economy. They are that economy’s precondition.
The results of this incessant pursuit of profit, facilitated by the global movement of money, are by no means equal, and to that extent Corbyn and his supporters are right to highlight the widespread economic disparities in society. Indeed, the danger of conspiratorial thinking on the left is that it does in some ways “reflect a critical impulse”, a suspicion about the world and its forms of power.
It is also why, as the sociologist David Hirsh has argued, anti-semitism can present itself as a progressive and emancipatory force, a valiant attempt to rid the world of the evils dragging it down. It replicates the way that anti-migrant racism has become a sign of one’s commitment to a downtrodden “white working class” in the aftermath of Brexit.
This stuff has come to mind for me when I've looked on Corbyn social media sites and seen people going on en masse about the Rothschilds, Soros, or the global banking system. Momentum did a video recently telling people to basically leave it out with the Rothschild stuff (which was a good effort, I can't knock it). Same thing comes to mind when I see that horrible women from The Canary appearing on David Icke-related shows.
luka
Well-known member
I don't mind if they are nutters provided their ideals align with mine to some degree. So long as a labour government would mean a more equitable distribution of income, a less vindictive immigration and asylum system, commitment to the NHS, fewer homeless people on the streets, better workplace protection, making at least some token attempts to address climate change and so on and so forth. If they believe in Roswell landings and little green men, well, so be it.
john eden
male pale and stale
If you don't criticise this stuff from the outset you are screwed.
All social movements will have nutters in them but it really is incumbent on large orgs to deal with this stuff. Like, really deal with it.
The dynamic of political parties in a first past the post system is especially difficult because there will always be people who try to quieten down this criticism because "the top priority is to ge the tories out".
It's especially difficult with Corbyn's Labour because, to be overly generous about it, a lot of people have placed all their hopes and dreams in his capacity to make a real positive difference to their lives.
So it's why you need ultra ultra left people and anarchists around to burst the bubble.
And if you lose your soul, there's nothing to gain
It will be over, over...
All social movements will have nutters in them but it really is incumbent on large orgs to deal with this stuff. Like, really deal with it.
The dynamic of political parties in a first past the post system is especially difficult because there will always be people who try to quieten down this criticism because "the top priority is to ge the tories out".
It's especially difficult with Corbyn's Labour because, to be overly generous about it, a lot of people have placed all their hopes and dreams in his capacity to make a real positive difference to their lives.
So it's why you need ultra ultra left people and anarchists around to burst the bubble.
And if you lose your soul, there's nothing to gain
It will be over, over...
I think I said upthread - or maybe on another thread - I think they could undo a lot of what the Tories have done, the more nasty stuff, like the hostile environment fairly easily. Building a more equitable society, I'm not so sure about. That shifting around of resources, who owns what and so on.
Key for me at the minute is the Brexit stuff, and keeping alive the hope that we don't end up a more isolated, inward turning nation, eating ourselves.
Key for me at the minute is the Brexit stuff, and keeping alive the hope that we don't end up a more isolated, inward turning nation, eating ourselves.
luka
Well-known member
I agree with the sentiment and yet this won't stop you voting for him either as you've already made clear.
john eden
male pale and stale
Well I dunno - Diane has a 35,000 majority so there is hardly any point me adding to that. So I can bask in my own metropolitan moralism with no consequence.
Also as Tea has said, it's not a presidential candidacy - people will have to think about what their local MP is like and how that fits into the big picture.
john eden
male pale and stale
I'm with the anarchists on this one - whatever happens people need to keep the pressure up and hold politicians' feet to the fire.
Apparently Hindu nationalists are planning to target Labour and campaign for the Tories because they think Corbyn is "anti-Indian" due to something to do with Labour's stance on Kashmir.
Concerns over ‘foreign interference’ as India-linked Hindu nationalist group targets Labour candidates
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/op...-nationalist-group-targets-labour-candidates/
Concerns over ‘foreign interference’ as India-linked Hindu nationalist group targets Labour candidates
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/op...-nationalist-group-targets-labour-candidates/
luka
Well-known member
Well, yes, most votes are entirely meaningless looked at in that light I agree
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
It's not vague, it's extremely specific. It just doesn't say what you want to hear, and already think, ie. "Corbyn is great so STFU, what are you, a Tory or something?"
luka
Well-known member
Luckily I have a rule in place for mr tea comments
