the socialism of fools

[luka]

I like all his policies it's exactly what I've been saying I want for the last twenty years but I won't vote for him I'll let the Tories in instead because something or other I dunno.

 

[luka]

Someone told me he's unelectable so I won't vote for him that way he won't be elected and the prophecy will come true.

 

[yyaldrin]

yes it's insane, it's self sabotage. why? people want to maintain the status quo after all?

 

[luka]

I've seen it before. It's brainwashing pure and simple. The media goes into overdrive. People fall into line. It's that stark, that simple. I saw it in Australia with the mining tax. Huge mobilisation of resources went into defeating it and after a few days of relentless focussed advertising all you heard on the streets was people saying what a terrible thing it would be to tax the foreign mining companies making billions extracting Australia's mineral wealth. That's when I knew for sure that this stuff really works. That it really is as simple as it seems.

 

[luka]

It's easier to see as an outsider. This lot can't see it cos they're inside it. They think they're making their own decisions.

 

[yyaldrin]

I've seen it before. It's brainwashing pure and simple. The media goes into overdrive. People fall into line. It's that stark, that simple. I saw it in Australia with the mining tax. Huge mobilisation of resources went into defeating it and after a few days of relentless focussed advertising all you heard on the streets was people saying what a terrible thing it would be to tax the foreign mining companies making billions extracting Australia's mineral wealth. That's when I knew for sure that this stuff really works. That it really is as simple as it seems.

this is why the ultra-rich have been buying newspapers the last few years. like jeff bezos buying the washington post.

 

[luka]

Dickens couldn't have made up more ludicrously evil villains as this crop of Tories. But there's this thing stopping people from mobilising behind the opposition. It's extraordinary. It's such a crude demonstration of power and class interest you'd have to be blinkered not to see it. It couldn't be made more obvious. There, the mechanism in action.

 

[luka]

this is why the ultra-rich have been buying newspapers the last few years. like jeff bezos buying the washington post.

Of course. In Australia one of the mining magnates was trying desperately to buy one of the major papers.

 

[DannyL]

I don't actually mean any disrespect this time, but all of that shows you have no real idea what you're talking about. But then why would you? The media gives no indication of anything beyond what you've described. (And no, the soft left are not resigning en masse.)

Okay, in what way? I'm not directly involved so I don't know but point out to me where I'm wrong here. I can link to threads compiling resignations from Lab if yr interested.

 

[luka]

It's not rocket science. They literally construct reality. Your sense of the world outside your senses comes from the media, by necessity.

 

[DannyL]

Luke et al: One of the annoying legacies of our 2 party system is that it's adversarial and you have to pick a side. My position is that they're both fucking terrible for different reason.

The Tories are far closer to naked evil, I'll grant you, and I arguably spend too much time focused on the other side. Mea culpa.

 

[luka]

Yeah you have to pick a side. Obviously even the better of the two is going to be unpalatable for all sorts of reasons. But that's the game.

 

[luka]

And then Corbyn doesn't get elected and everyone shakes their head sagely and with sorrow says of course you can't get elected on a left wing platform in the uk. And that will be true as long as the nominally left wing refuse to vote for a left wing platform. It's in their hands. Extraordinary.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

because he's not anti-semitic

tbc - if you go back through the thread I've never referred to him as anti-Semite in the bigoted sense, and was explicit that I don't think he is bigoted

as far as the rest - it's a pretty solid answer

could do without the "including Jewish comrades" (any variant of "but I have ___ friends", true or not, is never a good look) and it makes him sound like a bit of a "who, me?" wide-eyed innocent

but those quibbles aside, solid

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

if you don't know my background btw - most of the old hands do but idk if you were around in those days - I was closely involved in anarchist etc stuff from teens thru my mid-20s

my views are generally more complicated and less certain, but I'd still never in a million years attack a guy like Corbyn from the right

my views on Israel etc are especially complicated but in general I don't think of it in terms of pro and anti

Palestinians have gotten an incredibly raw deal. Jews got possibly the rawest deal in all of history before that. Both of those things are, historically, largely Europe's fault.

it can be a high-wire balance act to strongly condemn the Israeli govt (which is not the same as Israel, the country) without embracing very unsavery bedmates

Corbyn's has done a very shitty job of that. I think he believes he's maybe used inopportune language but as always been morally in the right.

I would be fine voting for a politician who is 100% anti-settlement, or who wanted to cut off military aid, or many things

I would never in a million years vote for any politician who befriends Hamas and Holocaust deniers, whatever the moral imperative they think they have behind it.

You're not me, you have a different view, that's fine. but my view is the same as it was to begin with: fuck him.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I would never in a million years vote for any politician who befriends Hamas and Holocaust deniers, whatever the moral imperative they think they have behind it

and if you or anyone else disagrees that that's what he did, that's also fine. I'm not going to argue about it, but I'm happy to disagree.

 

[DannyL]

You're missing out the way Brexit is dividing people. There are some studies showing that Remain/Leave is taking precedence over other identifications, over Left/Right. If Lab had a Remainer in charge right now, I think they'd be cleaning up, their base would be much less split.

The devil is in the detail. If it was just a "who is the most left wing contest" of course Corbyn would win. But it's the expression of that over his career that people find unpalatable as you say. And we've had a few years now to have a look. I still think that closer to the election a lot of Labour's former supporters will come back. It'll collapse into a binary. I don't know if that's enough to put him in No 10 though. We'll see.

 

[DannyL]

X post to Luke obvs. I bore myself at this point. Don't think I've got much new to say on this topic -
beyond that a vote for Lib Dems in a Tory seat might well act to constrain whoever is in power, and stop Brexit. We live in hope. I'm imagining a hung parliament again anyway.

 

[luka]

You're missing out the way Brexit is dividing people. There are some studies showing that Remain/Leave is taking precedence over other identifications, over Left/Right. If Lab had a Remainer in charge right now, I think they'd be cleaning up, their base would be much less split.

The devil is in the detail. If it was just a "who is the most left wing contest" of course Corbyn would win. But it's the expression of that over his career that people find unpalatable as you say. And we've had a few years now to have a look. I still think that closer to the election a lot of Labour's former supporters will come back. It'll collapse into a binary. I don't know if that's enough to put him in No 10 though. We'll see.

I'm not missing it out I might even agree that a unambiguously anti Brexits Labour Party would have a much better chance of winning I just don't think it's possible to pretend the vote never happened. It's a terrible situation. The best way I've heard it described was one of the foreigner posters here who described it as a kind of doomsday riddle or something. It's insane, but it's still real. You can't pretend it didn't happen. That's not a principled stance.

 

[DannyL]

I would agree. Best thing would've been to start explaining to people honestly why it's a bad idea and follow that with the promises of huge programmes of investment to hep them economically. Corbyn could've done that but it doesn't align with his basic views so he's prevaricated for a couple of years and fucked his USP as a straight talking honest guy. A fucking mess as you say.