padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
they want someone to declare war
I understand the feelings perfectly well

I also understand how - in re thread topic - how such feelings might be enough to make some people over look some things they might otherwise not

I highly doubt a Corbyn PM would result in much if any of that, but I understand the feelings
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
that wasn't the question, corbyn is obviously very different from trump and I hold him in much higher regard. I was talking about the fervent supporters of each, whether the passion is actually based on policy or just the entertainment factor of sticking it to the opposition.

For us it's not about Corbyn as leader, it's about Corbyn as the frontman of the resurgent Labour movement and as such he is vigorously defended, because an attack on him is an attack on all of us and everything we want to happen. But really, yes, it's about policy – liberalist policy, green environmentalism, and socialist economics.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
but it's true - don't ask, don't get

and John is right, radical change is happening, whatever we do or don't do

so I understand voting Labour on that level too
 

luka

Well-known member
I understand the feelings perfectly well

I also understand how - in re thread topic - how such feelings might be enough to make some people over look some things they might otherwise not

I highly doubt a Corbyn PM would result in much if any of that, but I understand the feelings

I don't think he will either but he does at least stand for a more adverserial stance and a willingness to take on established power blocs. In reality he will almost certainly be defeated by those interests. You wpuld know the story of Gough Whitlam Padraig?
 

luka

Well-known member
Established interests mobilise ferociously to defeat any possible threat. It's plain to see in Corbyn's case. It couldn't be any starker.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
You wpuld know the story of Gough Whitlam Padraig?
I don't, besides that he was Australian

but I understand your feelings like I said - and like you said, it's a valid position to hold

I'm as cynical as can be about electoral politics at a national level (the more local, the less cynical) but as stated, don't ask don't get
 

luka

Well-known member
He's a good example of what happens when, by some freak accident, a left leaning leader wins a position of power.

Both the CIA and the British Establishment were involved in his removal.
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
is Labour resurgent?

I assume you mean ideologically, in which case, sure

but going by the polls, it very much seems like it is not

the movement itself is resurgent - as in the party has over half a million members (despite having lost circa 50,000 over Brexit)

as for the polls - I guess we'll see :)
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
the movement itself is resurgent - as in the party has over half a million members
yeah fair point. "movement" was the wrong word to use.

what I meant was, is Labour resurgent in the sense of appealing to electorate beyond its membership?

rn it looks fairly grim - then again, there are still 5 weeks to go, polls have been untrustworthy lately, and there seems to be a great deal of confusion/chaos in the details of contesting seats

so who knows
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
I do have a question, tho, as related to the thread's actual topic

as a fervent Corbyn supporter (or any others who want to answer), does his history in re Jews and/or related Labour history, trouble you in any way? or no?

I'm not talking about right-wing smear and/or political point-scoring, I'm talking about the man's own words and actions

they may not bother you. I'm not going to accuse anyone of anti-Semitism or anything if they don't. I'm just curious.

if they don't bother you, why not?

if they do, to what extent? and how would you like to see him address the issue, especially if does get into office?
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
He's a good example of what happens when, by some freak accident, a left leaning leader wins a position of power
sure, it's the nicer, sans violence (or much less of it anyway) version of what happened to Allende, Arbenz, Mossadegh, etc etc

nicer because Australia is in, or closer to being in, the Global North (esp back in the 70s), is majority white + English speaking, etc

but fundamentally the same thing

wasn't Harold Wilson supposed to have been undermined by the British intelligence services, or some elements thereof? or is that more like a conspiracy theory?
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
I'm not sure to what degree the movement is resurgent tbh. I don't feel like I see the signs of anything beyond internet spats. I can't point to programs of activism or campaigns that you might expect if it really had a strong social base. I mean, where are the big campaigns of industrial action being won etc? That's what a movement means surely, not just a load of plonkers waving Palestinian flags at the Labour conference. Lots of internal ructions about power within the Labour Party of course, and the usual parachuting of anointed candidates into seats but I don't see an empowered movement. But I am a cynic - but on the level of policy the membership seem to be defeated on big issues - Brexit being the biggest.

The loss of members is bigger than 50,000 as well. Twice that if not more. A lot of the old "soft left" are resigning en masse.
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
wasn't Harold Wilson supposed to have been undermined by the British intelligence services, or some elements thereof? or is that more like a conspiracy theory?

r
I haven't actually read the books, but I know where to look. I think it's a bit more than a conspiracy theory. Robin Ramsey, editor of Lobster Magazine wrote a book called Smear: Wilson & the Secret State (it's the sort of thing John might've read?). I really like the magazine because although it dives off the deep end into the conspiracy world (Ramsey is a huuuuuge JFK buff), it's incredibly well referenced, sourced etc to a really high standard. I'll have to get it out of the library - am quite interested in Wilson atm, esp as we seen to be rerunning the 70s in this country. (Cast are worse this time around, sets looking threadbase and hackneyed. Audience are bored and reviews poor).

From the reviews on Amazon:

This is a valuable and unusual tour of the secret history behind the last 50 years of British government. At its heart is the tale of Harold Wilson, an honest and dedicated moderate socialist whose 1964 election as Prime Minister rattled the cages of some powerful beasts. It was the Cold War. Britain's secret services were reeling from disclosures of Soviet penetration and were keen to prove their purity to the US. Wilson's election had unexpectedly bypassed the established crown prince in the Labour Party, who was a CIA collaborator. Wilson looked popular and set to roll forward the post-war Welfare State. A fantastical theory got cooked up between MI5, MI6 and the CIA that Wilson was a Soviet agent who must be driven from power. This book is the story of their campaign over the next 10 years to achieve this.

It was a campaign instigated and intermittently directed by MI5, MI6 and CIA but, once in motion, largely waged by their secret helpers in Parliament and the press, and within networks of right-wing extremists - some with Forces links. An awful lot of what is described in this book is simply organised smear stories and press harassment. But twice at least serious practical planning for a coup does seem to have occurred. Remember how during the Falklands War some Cunard liners were requisitioned as troop carriers? Well, in 1975 Cunard got a similar official request for use of the QE2 as a floating prison for Wilson and his ministers in the event of a coup (p 285).

This book covers a vast swathe of recent history - Vietnam, Rhodesia, the early miner's strikes, Northern Ireland, the Chilean coup, the `private armies' plotting to rescue Britain in the early seventies, the `Spycatcher' affair. Some topics seem touched on all too briefly and frustratingly - many short chapters on utterly disparate topics. Re the plots against Parliament by the South African and the Ulster-based intelligence services, for instance, it's tantalising not to be told more. Likewise for startling comments about an intense, multi-decade feud between MI5 a
nd MI6, which may be running still. And yet this is how it must be, for the book is long as it is - and a very dense read. There's no way yet more could be squeezed in.
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
I do have a question, tho, as related to the thread's actual topic

as a fervent Corbyn supporter (or any others who want to answer), does his history in re Jews and/or related Labour history, trouble you in any way? or no?

I'm not talking about right-wing smear and/or political point-scoring, I'm talking about the man's own words and actions

they may not bother you. I'm not going to accuse anyone of anti-Semitism or anything if they don't. I'm just curious.

if they don't bother you, why not?

if they do, to what extent? and how would you like to see him address the issue, especially if does get into office?

They don't really bother me, no, because he's not anti-semitic. The idea that such a lifelong committed anti-racist even could be anti-semitic is just preposterous.

However, therein also lies his problem: pro-Palestinian rights, anti-Israeli occupation, surrounded by left wing comrades (including Jewish comrades) who think the same way he does on these issues, naturally confident in his own moral rectitude... means he's not been sufficiently self-critical on this issue. Consequently, he's done and said some stupid things, things which are... when you stop and think for a moment... just stupid. I mean ffs Jeremy :rolleyes:

The best outcome of this is for the left to reexamine some of its views on Israel, and how it expresses them. The Labour self-education pamphlet "No Place For Antisemitism" is a right step in this direction. And those in the party who can't or are unwilling to do that work can sod off. (Note that that won't be all that many because the party is not riddled with anti-semitism.)

As for what Corbyn himself can do, I've no idea. This whole thing has been whipped up into such a moral panic - not least by the BBC - that nothing he might do or say will satisfy his critics. But he isn't going anywhere, nor are we going to push him, so...

PS "fervent supporter" is the wrong expression above. Even though most of us like Corbyn as a warm, compassionate, principled, courageous, and committed socialist, this is not actually about him as leader. Nor would he want it to be.
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
I'm not sure to what degree the movement is resurgent tbh. I don't feel like I see the signs of anything beyond internet spats. I can't point to programs of activism or campaigns that you might expect if it really had a strong social base. I mean, where are the big campaigns of industrial action being won etc? That's what a movement means surely, not just a load of plonkers waving Palestinian flags at the Labour conference. Lots of internal ructions about power within the Labour Party of course, and the usual parachuting of anointed candidates into seats but I don't see an empowered movement. But I am a cynic - but on the level of policy the membership seem to be defeated on big issues - Brexit being the biggest.

The loss of members is bigger than 50,000 as well. Twice that if not more. A lot of the old "soft left" are resigning en masse.

I don't actually mean any disrespect this time, but all of that shows you have no real idea what you're talking about. But then why would you? The media gives no indication of anything beyond what you've described. (And no, the soft left are not resigning en masse.)
 

luka

Well-known member
I have no doubt that people will look back at the Corbyn era in utter astonishment. This spectacle of millions of self proclaimed lefties desperately scrabbling about for any reason not to vote for Corbyn all in the face of the most monstrous, comically evil Tory government of all time.

Rees Mogg goes on radio and says the people who died at Greenfell were stupid, why didn't they just walk out the building if it was on fire and all the left wing people go, maybe I'll vote lib dem. You couldn't make it up. A testament to the extraordinary power of the media to shape opinion.
 

luka

Well-known member
I mean fair enough, Danny's obsessed with Syria and thinks that should be the main concern of any UK government, although quite what power the uk has to affect the situation is unclear, mr tea is a dyed in the wool tory, Barty is, bizarrely for a 24 year old, a fierce new labour ideologue. Idle rich wants to pretend Brexits isn't real. I'm not really talking about people here. They have their reasons.
 
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