Brexit Day

[comelately]

There's a contingent of us here on the forum, me, Eden, Craner, Barty, who think pretending we didn't lose is not a very useful path forwRd.

That's a blatant strawman, but putting that to one side I'm not sure what anybody has said that's particularly useful - not that I particularly want to hold them to a standard, but given you have brought it up......

 

[comelately]

Whilst we have lost, there are degrees of losing and the game, to some extent, is still being played.

What is notable is how this 'accepting we lost' seems to mean accepting Brexiteer talking points (e.g. Brexit has happened). It feels like you're another 20cl of vodka away from loving Boris Johnson.

And yeah, I stooped so low as to invoke Orwell. But there is something to it with Brexit (see the doublethink I mention in previous posts).

 

[luka]

That's a blatant strawman, but putting that to one side I'm not sure what anybody has said that's particularly useful - not that I particularly want to hold them to a standard, but given you have brought it up......

All this stuff about straw men and steel men is aesthetically unpleasant for me. Too internetty. Too politics discussion board. Too debate club. Can we talk more normally please?

 

[comelately]

Yes, but you could not blatantly misrepresent people as well.

 

[luka]

I don't know. I mean, do you understand what we, the gang, are reacting to, on an emotional level? This assumption of superiority? Stupid people who voted without knowing what they were voting for? Etc etc.

 

[luka]

We all voted without knowing what we were voting for. My sister is a civil service lawyer and so I know that ministers don't have time to read the relevant information let alone us. It moves too fast and it's too big. We're not in control. We don't have a hanndle on it

 

[sadmanbarty]

i'm a remainer, but there is a core legitimacy in the leave argument that the remain movement has done very little to address.

 

[luka]

And come lately you're not thick, so I know you know what I mean, you have this feedback loop
where the media finds the thickest Brexit cunt to say the thickest thing imaginable and then they play it on telly and then it gets looped on Twitter SPECIFICALLY to wind up Mr Tea who takes it to be entirely representative of every Brexit voter on this poxy island

 

[luka]

i'm a remainer, but there is a core legitimacy in the leave argument that the remain movement has done very little to address.

We are all remainders. We are all liberals. Every single person on here.

 

[sadmanbarty]

as it happens, i do think one reason remainers have found it so hard to accept the legitimacy of the vote was that they were never offered a real case for leaving the eu. the central tenets of the leave campaign were blatant falsehoods.

 

[luka]

i'm a remainer, but there is a core legitimacy in the leave argument that the remain movement has done very little to address.

theyre living in denial. I don't like it. I'm not into it. I don't want a blue passport. But I don't want to live in denial and I can't foretell the future so maybe it'll turn out for the best like when we didn't join the stupid euro

 

[luka]

as it happens, i do think one reason remainers have found it so hard to accept the legitimacy of the vote was that they were never offered a real case for leaving the eu. the central tenets of the leave campaign were blatant falsehoods.

I mean, I'll get in trouble for saying this, but I think everyone knew they were.

 

[luka]

I don't personally believe anyone beleived that bollocks. We all know politicians are full of shit. Some people just want to leave Europe. I won't offer any evidence. But that's what I think.

 

[IdleRich]

We all voted without knowing what we were voting for. My sister is a civil service lawyer and so I know that ministers don't have time to read the relevant information let alone us. It moves too fast and it's too big.

To a point this is true... but some people are closing to knowing the main points than others. That's quite a big point and I don't think that's particularly controversial. Otherwise let's just accept no-one knows anything about anything and shut down the forum.
And I don't think you have to say that Leavers are thick to say that they were misled eg when the Leave campaign said "No-one is talking about leaving the common market" it doesn't make you thick if you voted for a Brexit that involved staying in the common market.
BUT when it turned out we were gonna do exactly that, and Leave voters say "Oh I always knew we would" I think that does stick in the craw a little cos it's not true. You (Luka) can say "Oh that's just details" but a) it's quite a big detail and actually b) I'd have more respect for that response which would at least be honest.

 

[sadmanbarty]

opinion polling said about a third of leavers believed the nhs thing at the time of voting. but i prefer your angle. its better. more fun. once you start quoting opinion polls your only 1 degree away from talking about strawmen.

 

[luka]

I haven't been following the thing I don't read the news and I can't believe I'm participating on a Brexit thread but I'm having fun and that's what I think and I think Eden articulated it admirably

 

[sadmanbarty]

We are all remainders. We are all liberals. Every single person on here.

even vim if it came down to it. he likes toying with the other side, but when we have a civil war, he'll pick our side.

the other lot are too churlish. a purile rabble of thickos. he can't entertain their company. he wants to read craner essays and all that.

 

[luka]

opinion polling said about a third of leavers believed the nhs thing at the time of voting. but i prefer your angle. its better. more fun. once you start quoting opinion polls your only 1 degree away from talking about strawmen.

They fucking only pretended too. They dint care

 

[IdleRich]

But I agree there is no point pretending that it didn't happen or however you said it. The main point is to prevent the same tactics and stuff winning again on the next thing. I think we can all see that US democracy is in an absolutely critical moment right now, if it is to continue even in its debased form then Trump must be stopped at the next election, otherwise it will be gone. I think that Johnson would love to take us to the same position and he's not much less far along - so it's crucial to not keep getting suckered by lies and so on, move on yeah, but keep hammering on about the cheating. I see now for example that the Russia report has still not been released - again I don't think it will be a smoking gun, but - I am glad that people keep banging on about it, it's important that it doesn't become the norm that the government can suppress reports into itself. That's my main point really.

 

[IdleRich]

I mean, I'll get in trouble for saying this, but I think everyone knew they were.

Falsehoods? I reckon a lot of them did... and yet, and yet... you do still loads of people going "the EU need us more than we need them". I dunno.
But moving from "Ha, leavers are thick as shit" to "Leavers are spiteful lying cunts who knew it would be shit but didn't care as long as the sort of people they don't like were gonna suffer" - is that a much less patronising position?