Brexit Day

[DannyL]

Well if the vast majority of people in this country are weird sadists then obviously organising for progressive politics is very hard and organising for fascism is very easy.

But I‘m not sure that is true, or that if it is true that this is some genetic quirk rather than a learned behaviour.

Whether it’s true or not, I don’t think this really alters my position. Because people lashing out at the establishment is understandable even if they have expressed it badly. I think we need to wrestle that anti-establishment impulse away from stock-brokers like Farage and deploy it in different ways. The only way to do that is by building bridges with people, by orientating our politics around our shared needs and what we have in common.

I think the problem a lot of Remainers make is assuming that everyone who voted for Brexit did so for basically false reasons. When in fact, there may be plenty of reasons for voting to Leave that aren't just racism or stupidity (though no doubt these are in the mix for many). Voting for govt that's close to you geographically for instance.

 

[version]

They never seem to be able to cite those reasons though. You just get vague statements about immigration or the repeating of slogans they've picked up from Farage, certain Tories and social media campaigns.

 

[version]

One of the people I know irl who voted for Brexit told me we needed to leave to "stop all the arabs coming over and claiming thousands of pounds a week in benefits".

 

[boxedjoy]

I'd wish I was an Arab immigrant if that were true

 

[DannyL]

They never seem to be able to cite those reasons though. You just get vague statements about immigration or the repeating of slogans they've picked up from Farage, certain Tories and social media campaigns.

Not my experience. I'm good friends with an older Leave voter, who's basically politically a Green, and he cites his reasons as wanting to discourage "all of this trade" for environmental reasons.

 

[john eden]

In all honesty I think the likeliest scenario is that everyone spends the next ten years engaged in recriminations about Brexit and/or immigration whilst the ruling class brutally restructures us all.

Pick a side, are you a plucky patriot who hates the latte sipping metrosexual elite? Or are you an intelligent liberal who loves Europe and hates thicko provincial racists?

 

[version]

Not my experience. I'm good friends with an older Leave voter, who's basically politically a Green, and he cites his reasons as wanting to discourage "all of this trade" for environmental reasons.

How many of those leavers do you think there are relative to the type of leaver I mentioned?

 

[DannyL]

I don't know but I reckon Leaver sentiment is more complex than you're giving it credit for.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Well if the vast majority of people in this country are weird sadists then obviously organising for progressive politics is very hard and organising for fascism is very easy.

But I‘m not sure that is true, or that if it is true that this is some genetic quirk rather than a learned behaviour.

Whether it’s true or not, I don’t think this really alters my position. Because people lashing out at the establishment is understandable even if they have expressed it badly. I think we need to wrestle that anti-establishment impulse away from stock-brokers like Farage and deploy it in different ways. The only way to do that is by building bridges with people, by orientating our politics around our shared needs and what we have in common.

Well it's obviously not true, or even close to true. The Tories have a huge majority in parliament on the basis of under 44% of the popular vote - multiply that by the turnout and it's under 30% of eligible voters. But we have FPTP and the not-the-Tories vote is split between Labour, two medium-sized parties and several smaller parties, so he we are.

Edit: and anyone who thinks they're "lashing out at the establishment" by doing exactly what Jacob Rees-Mogg has told them to is, to put it bluntly, a fucking idiot. But it's clear to me that the most representative Brexit supporters aren't anti-establishment at all. They're cap-doffers and forelock-tuggers who bloody love the establishment. What they hate is uppity know-alls who read the Guardian, and immigrants.

 

[Mr. Tea]

And of course some Tory voters are actually rich enough that they will be net beneficiaries of tax cuts and deregulation.

 

[version]

I don't know but I reckon Leaver sentiment is more complex than you're giving it credit for.

I'd like to think it is, but then I look at the campaigns and media coverage which made the greatest impact and it doesn't seem that complex.

 

[version]

For the record, I don't think remainer sentiment is particularly complex either.

 

[john eden]

The beauty of the Leave campaign was that a slogan like "Take Back Control" is very simple. And like a rorschach inkblot, it leaves people to project their own complex answers, hopes and needs into the space that it opens up.

 

[DannyL]

I'd like to think it is, but then I look at the campaigns and media coverage which made the greatest impact and it doesn't seem that complex.

I'm not saying there isn't a degree of xenophobia, prejudice and whatever caught up with other reasons.

 

[version]

I don’t think so no. Farage would love to make everything about Brexit forever. He has little to say about anything else. If we move the conversation into other areas he becomes less relevant. You’re left with mental UKIP types who want to bring back smoking in workplaces or ban gay marriage or whatever.

He's already moving on to lockdown skepticism, migrant crossings and the environment though. I worry that people will continue to take him seriously unless his credibility is somehow completely demolished by exposing how dishonest and manipulative he's been re: Brexit.

 

[version]

The Tories were allowed to shed their skin and present themselves as a completely new party last election too.

 

[john eden]

He's already moving on to lockdown skepticism, migrant crossings and the environment though. I worry that people will continue to take him seriously unless his credibility is somehow completely demolished by exposing how dishonest and manipulative he's been re: Brexit.

He was only able to be so successful because the EU was the subject of a battle between various factions of the establishment. I don’t think this is the case with lockdown scepticism etc - or at least not in the same way.

 

[version]

He's casting about for an issue to latch onto.

 

[DannyL]

He's a absolute cunt but quite a canny politician. He articulates popular grievance like no one else. Labour should hire him as a consultant.

 

[version]

I mean maybe you're right and he doesn't manage to find another issue like Brexit, but if people never see him for what he was then then they'll fall for the next one.