Brexit Day

[IdleRich]

I mean both sides do it to an extent. Sometimes there will be an argument about whether some postal votes are eligible or not and each side will go to court to make them count or be stricken out depending on which they think will benefit them. That's just natural. But the Rs under this regime are a) pushing it further than ever before and b) in a position where they can win ninety percent of such battles

 

[IdleRich]

She got black hair.

 

[sadmanbarty]

She got black hair.

is she chuvash?

 

[IdleRich]

I should probably know what that means but...

 

[sadmanbarty]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuvash_people#Subgroups

 

[IdleRich]

Ah ok, I would say not as far as she knows.

 

[IdleRich]

Anyway, I could be wrong about Trump's willingness to cheat, and I would have not have been so forthright even a few weeks ago but it's really worrying at the moment. I think that the Dems can win the next election if they turn out and vote... and they better had cos if they don't the next one will be even harder.
And I don't think that we're at that stage yet in the UK - the Tories don't need to be so blatant, Labour is in a mess. But trying to crush the courts like this is not a good sign.

 

[luka]

But if that's the landscape, and it is. What do we do? How do we counter it? Not by appealing to the rules that's obvious. Not crying. We want to win

 

[luka]

How do we beat Nazis who don't play by the rules? That's the game

 

[IdleRich]

But if that's the landscape, and it is. What do we do? How do we counter it? Not by appealing to the rules that's obvious. Not crying. We want to win

OK... but the main thing with this thread has been to get you (and Eden) to reach that point. You have to be at least asking that question before we can get anywhere.
I dunno the answer obviously but at last we got here.

 

[luka]

We know that it's our starting line. We want to win

 

[IdleRich]

My guess is that you try everything. Yeah of course you have to try and win hearts and minds etc with policies, ideas whatever. But I think in the US they are doing the right thing - win the vote, impeach the cunt, imprison his associates, take him to courts to see his tax returns and so on and so forth. Fight them with every mechanism that you can.

 

[IdleRich]

We know that it's our starting line. We want to win

But if you (I really mean Eden here I guess) refuse to acknowledge the tactics previously used and how and why they worked then you've already lost. That's what I've been saying - don't whine about the cheating, or only inasmuch as it will make it harder to do next time. Just crying about it is no good - but saying "Ah it didn't matter" is stupid cos they will do exactly the same next thing next time... fool me once shame on you etc

 

[luka]

My guess is that you try everything. Yeah of course you have to try and win hearts and minds etc with policies, ideas whatever. But I think in the US they are doing the right thing - win the vote, impeach the cunt, imprison his associates, take him to courts to see his tax returns and so on and so forth. Fight them with every mechanism that you can.

Well I dunno. You're like me rich. Our birthdays are a day apart, we are not politically active. We want to tske out drugs and eat our food. We are not self sacrificing. We will not do work in the community. We will not volunteer at the soup kitchen. Let's see what happens.

 

[IdleRich]

We'll talk about it though, and that's what we're doing...
Or, less cynically. Actually part of the battle I'm talking about was fought online, maybe can actually do something from my balcony. But yeah probably not.

 

[comelately]

i'm a remainer, but there is a core legitimacy in the leave argument that the remain movement has done very little to address.

I think I've dealt with that issue in a previous post, but I'll go further: there is an issue with things like the Treaty of Lisbon etc but I think Remainers have addressed this: whilst one can certainly debate deeper integration and now successive UK governments have handled it, 1) that tells you something about UK governments, & 2) in the 21st century, you will end up pooling sovereignty with somebody - if it's not the EU, it may well end up being China and/or America. Good luck with that!

 

[comelately]

We all voted without knowing what we were voting for. My sister is a civil service lawyer and so I know that ministers don't have time to read the relevant information let alone us. It moves too fast and it's too big. We're not in control. We don't have a hanndle on it

It's a false binary. Ha, that's going to annoy you.

OK, basically you are asserting that if you don't have complete and total understanding of something, whatever level of understanding you do have is irrelevant. That's complete and utter bollocks. It's not even thinking.

 

[comelately]

But if you (I really mean Eden here I guess) refuse to acknowledge the tactics previously used and how and why they worked then you've already lost. That's what I've been saying - don't whine about the cheating, or only inasmuch as it will make it harder to do next time. Just crying about it is no good - but saying "Ah it didn't matter" is stupid cos they will do exactly the same next thing next time... fool me once shame on you etc

Precisely.

I don't think I'm unwilling to empathise with the Brexiteers. But ultimately I'm not seeing anything 'fruitful' from the 'accepting they were basically right is the key to learning from the loss' position.

There's no election until 2024 almost certainly, and the damage they can do in that time may well make any kind of short-term winning absolutely impossible.

One can accept the loss, but there's a difference between that and saying 'oh we're all Brexiteers now' - funnily enough, it was this kind of 'listening to the voters' by Harriet Harman (regarding social security reform) that lead to Jeremy Corbyn.

 

[luka]

I'm pro Brexit after to listening to you lot carrying on about it! You've pushed me over the edge!

 

[comelately]

I didn't leave the left, the left left me!