Election 2020

[Mr. Tea]

Well there is the reformist argument that “democracy” can be massively expanded beyond a vote for billionaires in one of two parties every 5 years which then gets mangled by the electoral college.

And there is the revolutionary argument that ordinary people rather than billionaires can run the world and share the wealth and resources fairly, based on cooperation rather than competition.

This doesn't sound like an argument against democracy, though. It sounds like "At present we have bad democracy, which we should replace with good (or at least better) democracy."

 

[woops]

Sorry for annoying you.

this is as historic an event as any capitol invasion

 

[john eden]

Hence the term reformist, yes. But you only have to look at how suggestions of mild reforms are received by the US media to see that some people think that would be radical socialism.

 

[...]

this is as historic an event as any capitol invasion

Seismic. Or tactical.

 

[luka]

Just to reiterate the obvious
Pre internet you could control the Rashomon effect
different constellations of Facts assemble themselves into different interpretations

 

[Mr. Tea]

Hence the term reformist, yes. But you only have to look at how suggestions of mild reforms are received by the US media to see that some people think that would be radical socialism.

Agreed with that, obviously. I mean some of these loonies think Biden, of all people, is a Marxist.

But what form of government do you imagine being in place under your second, revolutionary, option? Is it a form of democracy so fair, direct and liberatory that we can't even imagine it yet, or is it something other than democracy altogether?

 

[luka]

Seismic. Or tactical.

Always the cynic

 

[IdleRich]

Well no, fucking it off means not seeing it as legitimate.

But doesn't help if the people in power treat it as legitimate. That's why the Dems were so overjoyed by the Rs talking about boycotting Georgia run-offs.

 

[john eden]

Agreed with that, obviously. I mean some of these loonies think Biden, of all people, is a Marxist.

But what form of government do you imagine being in place under your second, revolutionary, option? Is it a form of democracy so fair, direct and liberatory that we can't even imagine it yet, or is it something other than democracy altogether?

Probably a combination of expanded direct democracy for some things and consensus for others (obviously for smaller groups). But that may lead to other things for sure.

 

[IdleRich]

Yes definitely. I mean in terms of boring practical solutions I think we should do away with things like the electoral college or even the way it's done in the UK. I imagine that part of the reason for those was simply to do lots of small local counts and that's no longer necessary. We should move to PR with the amount of power each party has depending on how many people voted for them - that doesn't sound too radical does it?
And yeah chuck out the all or nothing thing. Why not have some compromise and people having to work together in parliament? The main argument against PR is that they can't make big swingeing changes... but so what, most radical things that politicians do are shit.

 

[Pandiculate]

Unrelated, I was going to post this in the Japan thread, but seems a pro-Trump faction had their own mini-demo in Tokyo - which I REALLY can't get my head around 🙄

As far as I understand it, it's because he's been tough on China and right-wing Japanese people hate the Chinese

But also apparently QAnon has gotten a bit of a foothold there

 

[Mr. Tea]

The ultimate kick in the teeth: Pence has said he will attend the inauguration.

 

[IdleRich]

Did he say whose inauguration though? Obviously he means that of Trump, he's said it in such a way as to trick people who read MSM into thinking that Trump has resigned - as if!
Now more than ever people we need to trust in the plan.

 

[Leo]

Well there is the reformist argument that “democracy” can be massively expanded beyond a vote for billionaires in one of two parties every 5 years which then gets mangled by the electoral college.

And there is the revolutionary argument that ordinary people rather than billionaires can run the world and share the wealth and resources fairly, based on cooperation rather than competition.

that's still democracy, though. just a fairer form of it.

also, campaign finance demands and laws have made it so rich candidates -- or those backed by rich forces -- are the only ones who end up running. it's tough nut to crack, since outlawing outside campaign funding has been determined by the Supreme Court to be an infringement on 1st amendment rights to free speech.

also, there are some positive examples: Rev. Raphael Warnock, a Black pastor who before this year never ran for any political office, was just elected to be Senator from Georgia. Jimmy Carter was a peanut farmer. Far from billionaires (but also rare examples).

 

[thirdform]

But doesn't help if the people in power treat it as legitimate. That's why the Dems were so overjoyed by the Rs talking about boycotting Georgia run-offs.

I don't think the two are comparable and in any case your school of thought is the Biden is the lesser evil compared to Trump, so what's the problem?

The capital R remainers weren't going to fuck it off anyway. Even if we could have magically turned back the clock. Britain has huge metropole-periphery divisions that people still haven't learnt about. It is just easy to tarnish people you don't know as racists and gammons (which they may very well be) but that's no grounds for conducting politics.

Really it's a struggle between two modes of anglo elite. Pro integrationist euro neolibs and old school classical liberals. The correct option was to refuse to vote. I'm happy to report I haven't changed this position even when I had adopted it in 2015.

 

[thirdform]

What the British and American psyche both share is externalising their problems. The whole thing is a victim grift, be that on the left, and increasingly these days on the right. This is why I can't be enthused about saving this country. Saving it would indicate that people are willing to abandon their hubris. I don't see that happening any time soon.

 

[thirdform]

And everyone else is subject to libidinal manipulation? Not disagreeing, just... wondering.

Upon second thought: Or do you mean the heart of any would-be base is just beyond the reach of would-be manipulators"

The working class has largely abandoned politics altogether. and who can blame them? And the left has adopted the residues of the enterprising flagship which the right used to traditionally challenge, but because its no longer construction of great industry but a descent into the universities. If I was a white millennial making a killing in the US I'd vote dem, no question.

 

[sufi]

you didn't answer the questions. what's the better alternative?

hey Leo, sorry i conked out right before you left this question! it was late and i was beginning to er lose focus on the discussion

we did a thread on issues with democracy and dan asked the same question

democracy is gamification

of government or of politics, or is politics itself gamification of government? It's like a ridiculous game show - it's ineffective and counterproductive - it actually drives people away from politics In Kenya 2010 1,000s were killed and ethnically cleansed for the sake of their elections I'm...

www.dissensus.com

i'd stand by eden's dull but obvious reply above too, there's plenty of scope for improvement

 

[sufi]

by the way what is this "hoo ha" chant that the US jocks do?

 

[sufi]

Just to reiterate the obvious
Pre internet you could control the Rashomon effect
different constellations of Facts assemble themselves into different interpretations

pre-internet the news was shared, everyone had access to the same stories from the papers or the telly each day and could listen together and discuss
personalised news feeds are 🔥