The Republican War on Transgender People, Drag Queens, and Queerness in General

[malelesbian]

what I don't get is why the act of simply doing the opposite of what is expected of your sex, while still associating those things with the opposite sex, helps the situation - surely that's just reinforcing the binary, not challenging it? many aspects of masculinity and femininity are arbitrary, e.g. pink = girly, makeup is for women, engineering is a male career, etc.... so if a man self-consciously performs "femininity" by wearing pink and being "sensitive", it's just another way of affirming the idea that "these things are feminine". thereby reinforcing the binary even though these things aren't inherently feminine. compare that to a man who just does those things without mentioning masculinity/femininity/identity altogether. do you see what I mean?

My associations don't classify my actions as masculine or feminine, society does. The gender binary is a social institution independent of my individual assertions of a behavior as feminine or masculine. The gender binary dictates that men act masculine and women act feminine. By the gender binary's standards, if a man acts feminine, he no longer counts as a man, he falls into abjection and the gender binary lacks the conceptual resources to allow us to understand his identity. Thus a man acting feminine will never reinforce the gender binary, only a man acting masculine will. You and I both accept that the gender binary exists. The gender binary prohibits anyone from acting both feminine and masculine. If I refuse to consider my sensitive behavior as feminine, society will still deem sensitivity as a feminine trait, and it will still refuse to understand sensitive men as traditional men. Like you said, people defiant of the gender binary face negative consequences. The main penalty for acting both feminine and masculine is losing your identity as a traditional man or woman, the only two identities the gender binary allows for. Both masculinity and femininity define the male lesbian's identity. Thus the male lesbian's male femininity subverts the gender binary.

 

[malelesbian]

But you're obviously not, though, because you think masculine men are bad and are causing a problem.

The only problem is that masculine men sometimes use their masculinity to promote anti-feminism or phallocentrism. The redpills are saying that the problem with men is that they're too feminine and they need to be more manly. They want men to actively block out their femininity. I propose acting feminine as an antidote to that toxic masculinity. But men can act as masculine as they want as long as they don't undermine feminine cultural representation.

 

[jenks]

Mate. You’ve got your own thread. Could you fuck off back to it. This thread was set up by @padraig (u.s.) to highlight some really fucking awful stuff, let’s not get distracted.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Mate. You’ve got your own thread. Could you fuck off back to it. This thread was set up by @padraig (u.s.) to highlight some really fucking awful stuff, let’s not get distracted.

I haven't really had time to post lately but absolutely, yes. Normally I'm fine with a certain level of thread derailment but if you - @malelesbian - are just going push your singular obsession in the exact same way can you just go back to your own thread dedicated specifically to that obsession. This is a thread for news and discussion of the very serious, ongoing assault on trans people and LGBTQ+ folx more broadly. Not for a self-described cis het dude to describe his theory of appropriating lesbianism for cis het dudes.

So yes, kindly fuck off.

 

[malelesbian]

I haven't really had time to post lately but absolutely, yes. Normally I'm fine with a certain level of thread derailment but if you - @malelesbian - are just going push your singular obsession in the exact same way can you just go back to your own thread dedicated specifically to that obsession. This is a thread for news and discussion of the very serious, ongoing assault on trans people and LGBTQ+ folx more broadly. Not for a self-described cis het dude to describe his theory of appropriating lesbianism for cis het dudes.

So yes, kindly fuck off.

I posted a video relevant to this thread. Others responded with questions for me unrelated to this thread. I simply asked the questions directed at me. Why don't you direct your ire to the people who asked me the questions? Or are you just flaming me because of your own deep-seated fear of your own femininity and the inexplicable rage it awakens in you?

Also, the notion that my view appropriates lesbian culture amounts to another strawman argument typical of you, Padraig.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

In some quick relevant news

A ton of anti-trans or drag laws have been blocked. Turns out it's hard (or, continues to be, this isn't a new thing) to make Twitter/soundbite rhetoric into laws that hold up in court.

And as many of yall have probably heard the Sunak govt is considering Section 28 type guidelines for trans students. Mandating what clothes teens are allowed to wear is particularly nuts but also a logical conclusion of this thinking

 

[Clinamenic]

I was waiting for this malelesbian/padraig conflict to happen, virtually inevitable.

 

[Clinamenic]

I won't call for any dialectical reconciliation in this case haha.

 

[malelesbian]

I will say that male lesbian issues are quite relevant to this topic. I mean, central to my view is the claim that mainstream culture represses alternative culture. Queer culture is one of those repressed cultures. You mean to tell me you see DeSantis trying to ban drag queen story hour, and you don't think queer culture is repressed?

Furthermore, the queer, non-binary heterosexuality promoted by male lesbianism (which Padraig says he supports without giving any examples of how) will, I think, play a big part in winning the war against queers. So much of this war focuses on the right trying to prohibit queer cultural representation. And what is male lesbianism all about? Queer cultural representation. I also think that if we can get more heterosexuals to represent the queer and non-binary elements of their identities, we'll get more people on the side of queers.

There's a whole host of issues connecting the war on queers to Butler's view. Butler outlined these connections in the video I posted. Not my fault none of you watched said video. Especially not Padraig, who continues the American tradition of arguing against views one doesn't properly understand.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I posted a video relevant to this thread. Others responded with questions for me unrelated to this thread. I simply asked the questions directed at me. Why don't you direct your ire to the people who asked me the questions? Or are you just flaming me because of your own deep-seated fear of your own femininity and the inexplicable rage it awakens in you?

Also, the notion that my view appropriates lesbian culture amounts to another strawman argument typical of you, Padraig.

Not gonna address any of this again after this last time

You posted - no surprise - a Judith Butler video that has vastly more to do w/yr own views than thread topic, then made it about yourself and your quixotic theory, as always. You contribute nothing of value to actual topic. @jenks + I left you to yr own thread. Be good enough to do the same here.

Also, I'm a queer person. My gf is trans. I know a ton of people who do drag or related performance. I know people who are fleeing Tennessee and Florida as fast as possible to escape these laws. This is my actual life, not your useless ivory tower bullshit/personal obsession.

You're a straight cis dude appropriating lesbianism from lesbians. Cope.

And to bring up strawmen and then accuse someone you know nothing about of having a fear of my own femininity is rich indeed.

Take your would-be commissar of gender ideology correctness and fuck all the way off.

/done

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I was waiting for this malelesbian/padraig conflict to happen, virtually inevitable.

On the very short list of worst regular posters in the 15 years I've been here

The real irony is that showing up in a space that's not yours and making it all about you is textbook toxic masculinity

But yeah, I'm done with this clown. I'd encourage the rest of yall to just stop engaging with his nonsense but that's your lookout.

 

[Clinamenic]

On the very short list of worst regular posters in the 15 years I've been here

The real irony is that showing up in a space that's not yours and making it all about you is textbook toxic masculinity

But yeah, I'm done with this clown. I'd encourage the rest of yall to just stop engaging with his nonsense but that's your lookout.

I mean, I can certainly relate to what he's doing, as I entered Dissensus in a similarly quixotic and solipsistic way. I also think I get his main idea, however distant from the reality of the queer people this thread focuses on. But yeah, ultimately I do understand how it can be received as being in poor taste.

At least MaleLesbian has a solid interlocutor in Thirdform in that other thread!

 

[malelesbian]

The idea that a (somewhat) abstract theory has nothing to do with real life is just garden-variety anti-intellectualism. The same anti-intellectualism that powers the anti-woke movement. Butler's theory pertains to the lived experience of queers. It's not the paradigmmatic account of gender identity for nothing! My sister's queer but I don't use this as an appeal to authority that magically gives me a priviliged perspective. Like I said, queers will only get stronger if we get more people to identify as queers.

Besides that we have a bunch of bald assertions and cursing, again typical of Padraig.

It's ridiculous to say that I've made this whole topic about myself when all I did was respond to question others asked me.

Also it's hilarious that Padraig posits himself as opposed to gender ideology, the SAME THING THE RIGHT WINGERS OPPOSE.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

School that allowed child to identify as cat faces government investigation

Teacher at Rye College in East Sussex was recorded suggesting a pupil who refused to accept her classmate was a cat that she was despicable

www.telegraph.co.uk

School that allowed pupil to identify as cat facing 'pupil safety' investigation

A school at the centre of a row over children identifying as animals is facing an investigation ordered by the Education Secretary.

www.lbc.co.uk

Teacher recorded calling pupil ‘despicable’ during debate on transgender identity

TikTok recording of gender identity discussion was shared on social media

www.independent.co.uk

 

[mixed_biscuits]

If biology is not identity, surely identifying as a cat or the moon is fine?

 

[wild greens]

Well there's plenty of balloon heads about don't see why not

 

[malelesbian]

If biology is not identity, surely identifying as a cat or the moon is fine?

Behavior defines identity, and no one can behave like the moon.
As for a cat, while genders are not biological categories, clearly the category "cat" is. Thus to identify as a cat confuses a biological category and non-biological gender.

 

[subvert47]

I'd suggest not taking that cat story too seriously.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I'd suggest not taking that cat story too seriously.

Well it wouldn't be the first trans-panic story biccies has posted that's turned out to be exaggerated, dishonestly taken out of context or just complete bollocks.

 

[thirdform]

Well it wouldn't be the first trans-panic story biccies has posted that's turned out to be exaggerated, dishonestly taken out of context or just complete bollocks.

lest we forget, being a free speech crusader also means you defend the right to claim the earth is flat, something barbarian muslims knew was utterly false long before civilised xtians like biscuits.

anyway, you should respond to my tag in the other thread, explain what is at stake for the brooklyn bloke.