The Republican War on Transgender People, Drag Queens, and Queerness in General

[Mr. Tea]

@padraig (u.s.) Do you have a better "ontological" or "metaphysical" (ugh, for lack of a better word) foundation for us to think about trans than as "born in the wrong body"? Biologically that seems very strange/nonsensical to me and also is basically gender essentialist in the sense of saying there's a "male" or "female" brain which is obviously super problematic and opens the gates to serious gender discrimination. When trans people say this, it's OK if they're being metaphorical or loose, but I'm unable to make a leap to the steelman

There are male and female brains, though. Current neuroscience bears this out. That's not to say everybody has a stereotypically male or stereotypically female brain - most people have a mixture of "male" and "female" brain features - but nonetheless, most people lie on one side (if not end) of the spectrum.

And people who identify as trans tend to have brain features that align more closely with the biological sex opposite to their own, predictably enough.

I know you'd dearly love for this all to be a cultural trend that might go away in a few years, but there you go.

 

[Mr. Tea]

MRI scans are now sensitive enough to detect the differences between boys' and girls' brains before they're even born.

Motion corrected MRI differentiates male and female human brain growth trajectories from mid-gestation - Nature Communications

The human fetal brain may exhibit early sex differences. Here, the authors present MRI based analysis female and male brain growth. Cortical development follows very similar trajectories at larger scales, while differing in focal regions. White matter growth differs at both large and small scales.

www.nature.com

 

[Mr. Tea]

@mixed_biscuits Have you by any chance got a really, really fit sister?

No answer, which is telling in itself.

 

[Benny Bunter]

'intersex' conditions (rather dated term but ok) aren't sexes. There are only 2 sexes.

 

[thirdform]

There are male and female brains, though. Current neuroscience bears this out. That's not to say everybody has a stereotypically male or stereotypically female brain - most people have a mixture of "male" and "female" brain features - but nonetheless, most people lie on one side (if not end) of the spectrum.

And people who identify as trans tend to have brain features that align more closely with the biological sex opposite to their own, predictably enough.

I know you'd dearly love for this all to be a cultural trend that might go away in a few years, but there you go.

But then that does beg the question. If a feminin presenting man has more of a brain weight (?) towards the male end of the spectrum, should their identity be invalidated? I think that's quite a dangerous precedent to set. (not saying you support this btw, but more that science cannot obviously possess an autonomous existence from the social relations it is formed and developed within...)

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

@padraig (u.s.) Do you have a better "ontological" or "metaphysical" (ugh, for lack of a better word) foundation for us to think about trans than as "born in the wrong body"? Biologically that seems very strange/nonsensical to me and also is basically gender essentialist in the sense of saying there's a "male" or "female" brain which is obviously super problematic and opens the gates to serious gender discrimination. When trans people say this, it's OK if they're being metaphorical or loose, but I'm unable to make a leap to the steelman

I would say that everyone is born in their own body and that societal, familial, etc pressures often force or make it very difficult for them to externally express who they feel like internally. so I'd frame it as the freedom to safely pursue who they think they are. I mean, I've talked to people with a huge range of feelings and experiences, from "I always knew I was [the opposite gender]", to very gradual and sometimes hesitant transitions, to people who feel like neither or like they fluidly move back and forth and embrace both. I don't think this clashes with what @Mr. Tea says about neuroscience either - just as people are different and unique in every other regard, so it is with gender identity.

basically I'd say the framework should be to listen to what trans people think about themselves. yunno, the kind of basic human dignity we should afford to everyone.

I guess the issue with "wrong body" is that it implies that there are only two kinds of correct bodies, which is where the essentialism comes in. possibly there is a "male" and "female" brain, but there isn't only one kind of male and female. at a certain point it's semantics.

for me basically, if you're not hurting anyone, do what you want. I don't think there's any inherent problem with traditional masculinity or femininity, the issues arise from people feeling or actively being forced into one of two narrowly confined archetypes. there are many ways to be, and they should all be available to everyone.

it's complicated, of course. as I'm sure you know, even among trans (and non-binary, genderfluid, etc) people there can a lot of complicated feelings and talk about embodying traditional gender roles or not as a trans person, and again it really runs the gamut - some trans women want to be ultrafeminine, some absolutely don't. just like cisgender women.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

and not to get all cyberpunk, but assuming that technological human culture lasts long enough, you'd think that eventually the "friction" of changing gender will decrease, and/or some other technology - synthetic body, virtual reality, idk - will make it easier for people to live as they please, at which point this rearguard action in favor of an arbitrary gender binary will thankfully diminish and then become mute

in the meantime, we're stuck fighting assholes over the basic right of trans people to exist

 

[thirdform]

and not to get all cyberpunk, but assuming that technological human culture lasts long enough, you'd think that eventually the "friction" of changing gender will decrease, and/or some other technology - synthetic body, virtual reality, idk - will make it easier for people to live as they please, at which point this rearguard action in favor of an arbitrary gender binary will thankfully diminish and then become mute

in the meantime, we're stuck fighting assholes over the basic right of trans people to exist

the greatest fear of terfs is artificial wombs. A not too distant possibility.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

'intersex' conditions (rather dated term but ok) aren't sexes. There are only 2 sexes.

first, intersex is the term that intersex people themselves use

second, tell that to Caster Semenya and any other intersex athlete of the last century or so

third, stop dodging the question - are you or are you not in favor of irreversible medical procedures on intersex children?

 

[Mr. Tea]

But then that does beg the question. If a feminin presenting man has more of a brain weight (?) towards the male end of the spectrum, should their identity be invalidated? I think that's quite a dangerous precedent to set. (not saying you support this btw, but more that science cannot obviously possess an autonomous existence from the social relations it is formed and developed within...)

I certainly don't support it, because it would be nuts! Maybe some people have, I dunno, but I've never heard of it. Let's leave the crazy what-if scenarios out of the discussion, eh?

 

[thirdform]

I certainly don't support it, because it would be nuts! Maybe some people have, I dunno, but I've never heard of it. Let's leave the crazy what-if scenarios out of the discussion, eh?

I agree. I'm just saying that even within what we might call male, there are an infinite variety of cultural and social variations. A deficiency of thinking Benny seems to share with the political activists he seems to criticise. People like this say children shouldn't be politicised, but then do exactly that. And lest we forget, the purported innocence of the child is the cornerstone of fascist and antisemitic conspiracy theories. and, more troublingly, the pathology of paedophiles.

 

[Benny Bunter]

Caster Semenya is male. It's not fair on females to compete against males in sport.

 

[sus]

basically I'd say the framework should be to listen to what trans people think about themselves. yunno, the kind of basic human dignity we should afford to everyone.

We don't tho? Maybe we should, but we definitely don't.

 

[sus]

I wish we had a "thinking" emoji

 

[Benny Bunter]

I remember a few years ago seeing a video clip of MMA fighter Fallon Fox (male trans identified) beating the living shit out of a female opponent, really horrific, smashed her skull in.

 

[Benny Bunter]

] A tweet from Fox in 2020 said: "For the record, I knocked two out. One woman’s skull was fractured, the other not. And just so you know, I enjoyed it. See, I love smacking up TEFS (sic) in the cage who talk transphobic nonsense. It’s bliss!"[20]

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I see I'm obligated to address the sports question too. alrite, let's get into it

I remember a few years ago seeing a video clip of MMA fighter Fallon Fox (male trans identified) beating the living shit out of a female opponent, really horrific, smashed her skull in.

first, the sports question is actually the one area where there's data suggesting that trans women should be excluded from competition with cis women under some circumstances. there was a Springer paper in 2021 suggesting that despite a noticeable decrease after a significant period (I don't remember exactly iirc the test subjects ranged from 1-5 years on HRT or thereabouts) that there's still a significant advantage - again I don't remember exactly but iirc it was something like trans women testing around ~90th percentile for all women in things like average lean body mass and strength. here's the paper if anyone wants to read it:

Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage - Sports Medicine

Males enjoy physical performance advantages over females within competitive sport. The sex-based segregation into male and female sporting categories does not account for transgender persons who experience incongruence between their biological sex and their experienced gender identity...

link.springer.com

Now, the authors of the papers do specifically state in their conclusions that

...it is clear that different sports differ vastly in terms of physiological determinants of success, which may create safety considerations and may alter the importance of retained performance advantages. Thus, we argue against universal guidelines for transgender athletes in sport and instead propose that each individual sports federation evaluate their own conditions for inclusivity, fairness and safety.

Basically, the advantage is strongest in sports relying heavily on upper body and explosive strength, less pronounced the further you get away from that. Side note: this should be obvious, but the decreases in mass, strength, etc do make it virtually impossible for trans women to continue competing against cis men.

Now, that was one study with 46 subjects. Obviously more needs to be done. But especially in sports that involve contact - MMA, American football, rugby, etc - I'm 100% fine with a policy of caution. I'm also fine with a more conservative policy in sports like weightlifting that are heavily reliant on pure and/or explosive strength. A New Zealand trans athlete named Laurel Hubbard, who began transition in 2012 at the age of 35 for reference, was allowed to compete at the international level in the women's super heavyweight category from 2017 until she retired following the Tokyo Olympics. I thought and still think it was a terrible decision, based on optics rather than fairness or sound policy.

Ultimately, there's always going to need to be some arbitrary decision about testosterone levels (or rather t/e ratio, which is how it's measured) based on the available data. That's what happened with Caster Semenya. The issue was never just, as Benny would have it, her chromosomes, it was her testosterone levels - the IAAF wound up basically saying if you take medication to knock your T below what we've decided is fair, you can compete. But cisgendered men and women also have varying testosterone levels. Part of elite athletes' genetic talent is precisely higher natural T than the average person. That's not discussing the validity or not of using T levels as a deciding factor, only saying that any number will be arbitrary.

In a more abstract sense all "fairness" in sport is ultimately a compromise. Everyone has different genetic potential. Some athletes benefit from better training infrastructure and funding, better access to PEDs, greater political/social stability at home. With that in mind, I'd say get more data and - as the authors of the study say - find out where and how advantages exist and going sport by sport, try to make the fairest possible compromise.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Anyway, what Benny's actually doing is cherrypicking a single outlying case - Fallon Fox - and it implicitly extending it to all of trans people in sports. The overwhelming majority of trans people playing sports are not adult MMA fighters but kids and teens. As these advantages overwhelmingly kick in with puberty, those fairness and safety issues don't exist in most of those cases, and exclusion is about just that: exclusion. Otoh, the many physical, mental, and emotional benefits of youth sports participation are well-known. Again, let's be guided by data - show me the study saying prepubescent and tween trans girls have a competitive advantage over cis girls and we can reconsider. With older teens where puberty has already begun, I'm again fine with a more conservative policy, depending on the sport.

another sidenote: some people have compared the anti-trans kids in sports campaign to previous complaints about Black women being "too masculine" i.e. having too much lean muscle mass etc - a byproduct of their what? you guessed it, naturally occurring testosterone levels

And it's a real bummer to have to make disclaimers like this but no, I don't endorse everything Fallon Fox has ever said or done. trans women, let's be clear, are OVERWHELMINGLY - like it cannot be stated strongly enough - more likely to be victims rather than perpetrators of violence. that includes sexual violence - trans people are 4x as likely to be sexually assaulted as cis people.

to address another ugly myth, that rate goes up when they can't access gender-consistent bathrooms and locker rooms. trans women are hugely more likely to be assaulted in a men's bathroom than they are to be assaulted someone in a women's bathroom.

all of this should be completely unsurprising to anyone who's actually spent time with trans women. they're often doubly paranoid about the risk of both the patriarchal violence that threatens all women, and the violence from queer and transbashers, and chasers who somehow often embody the worst of both categories. bathrooms, changing rooms, etc can be a nightmare to the point where it forces people to plan public outings around them.

 

[Benny Bunter]

You might be overthinking it a bit there mate, it's really quite simple

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

lmao enlighten us