?!..!?

Well-known member
Exactly. "Have you tried unconditional love?" is something you can imagine a particularly shitty priest saying to one of his parishioners who's just confessed that she's not as into her husband as she used to be, on account of him drinking all the housekeeping money and fucking other women, and then hitting her when confronted about it.
Ok but the alternative, conditional love, means treating people like they aren't even human. It's true that we shouldn't love abusers. But to say that we should only have conditional love means people will only ever love each other as objects instrumental to the satisfaction of their own desires. And you want to tell me that's better?

Both conditional and unconditional love have their own virtues and vices. But the point is our society is dominated by a tendency to make everything about the individual's selfish desires, and conditional love stems from that tendency. Unconditional love means opening yourself to the other person. It means accepting that there's more to love than just you and your selfishness.
 

sus

Moderator
Most importantly, the "representation of women" in discourse is essentially "represent women living out male-coded ideals"—that girl-boss feminism is in fact an enemy of your ideological agenda, insofar as it pushes women to aspire to masculinist ideals.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Ok but the alternative, conditional love, means treating people like they aren't even human. It's true that we shouldn't love abusers. But to say that we should only have conditional love means people will only ever love each other as objects instrumental to the satisfaction of their own desires. And you want to tell me that's better?

Both conditional and unconditional love have their own virtues and vices. But the point is our society is dominated by a tendency to make everything about the individual's selfish desires, and conditional love stems from that tendency. Unconditional love means opening yourself to the other person. It means accepting that there's more to love than just you and your selfishness.
What's wrong with some selfish desires, though? You want everyone to be a total doormat? Or just women?
 

?!..!?

Well-known member
What's wrong with some selfish desires, though? You want everyone to be a total doormat? Or just women?
Some selfish desires are good. I just think selfishness is overrepresented in our society and selflessness is underrepresented.
 

?!..!?

Well-known member
To illustrate just how sophomoric @ghost of beiser 's view is, let's look at some examples.

We already know what Beiser thinks about Joss Whedon. No matter how much feminist content Whedon creates, Beiser maintains that this content doesn't count as feminist because in real life Whedon had bad relationships with women. But consider Andrew Dice Clay. No woman has made any serious accusations against him. If you listen to his interviews, he maintains he had nothing but good relationships with women. Let's suppose he's right. Therefore, according to Beiser, despite the fact that Clay created massive amounts of misogynistic and sexist content, he is still a better feminist than Whedon just because he had good relationships with women in real life. Unfortunately for Beiser, no serious feminist would ever champion Clay as a paragon of feminism. Why? Because he created anti-feminist content. Beiser refuses to distinguish artistic content from social relations.

Second, consider a man who studies feminism, but, because of his own social isolation, has no female friends. He doesn't even have male friends. Now consider a man who literally knows nothing of feminism but has a lot of female friends. Again, Beiser has to say that the man ignorant of feminism is a better feminist than the literal feminist scholar. On Beiser's view, there is no reason to study feminism other than for entertainment perhaps. Beiser thinks feminist theory is worthless to the cause of feminism. Again, no serious feminist would agree with him.
 

ghost

Well-known member
I'm not trying to disparage anyone by saying that a person who is so socially isolated that they don't have any friends can't make social change. You've got a hermit, he lives in the woods, he never talks to a soul in his life. He wants to change society. I don't think this is very smart, or a very good way to be a hermit. One shouldn't try to repair social relations if they don't have any. It's like campaigning to stop deforestation when you live on a desert island. The theory of change here is basically "prayer".

Only if you're genuinely of the belief that "understanding theory" is akin to worship or self-purification can it even make sense to think that the man who knows nothing of feminism but is kind and understanding to his friends is worthy of denigration, or that our friendless hermit is doing literally anything of value whatsoever.

---

I'll defend Clay quite quickly—the point of Clay was the controversy, the tension between what was acceptable and what wasn't. The "downfall" he had was a symbolic one; it's kayfabe. You won't see people defend him because it sends the wrong message, you know, but by putting it out there, making it contestable, he was doing a great service to the cause. Even if that service was having his character getting symbolically annihilated out of the public sphere. That's how comedy works, it's a kind of accelerationism, without him you'd be stuck contesting it for another decade or two. The joke isn't about what he's saying, it's about what he's allowed to say, and then what he's not allowed to say. That's why Andrew Dice Clay's content isn't Andrew Tate's content. His earliest fans were women, and it's clear why—the joke is about the mortifying ordeal of being female, of having someone say outrageous things to you, of the attitudes he's surfacing and making contestable.

---

And then Whedon, as we discussed, is not making feminist content, he's making this sort of mockery of women. Do you not remember Dollhouse, his mind-control BDSM rape fantasy TV show, featuring crowds of reprogrammable women, all controlled by an amoral and geeky self-insert? The meta-text is of course that this is what he's always been doing, taking beautiful women and putting them in sleazy situations and reveling in their humiliation. The subtext is the same as it's always been in Joss Whedon's work, which is that the personalities of the women he writes don't belong to themselves, they belong to him; he's the one writing the clever quips, remember? They're not smart—he is.
 

ghost

Well-known member
Ok but the alternative, conditional love, means treating people like they aren't even human. It's true that we shouldn't love abusers. But to say that we should only have conditional love means people will only ever love each other as objects instrumental to the satisfaction of their own desires. And you want to tell me that's better?

Both conditional and unconditional love have their own virtues and vices. But the point is our society is dominated by a tendency to make everything about the individual's selfish desires, and conditional love stems from that tendency. Unconditional love means opening yourself to the other person. It means accepting that there's more to love than just you and your selfishness.
Conditional (aka "regular" love) is not instrumental. If your love is conditional on things like "basic respect for the rights of others" then you're probably a good person. You admit this ("we shouldn't love abusers"). There is nothing instrumentalizing about this.

Unconditional love is for parents, it's not for friends.
 

ghost

Well-known member
I thought that good parenting and being a good friend requires unconditional love: those friends sticking up for Letby are doing it right, love is not meant to track the truth. Lots of people are messed up from having had parents who made their love conditional.
Parents should love their children unconditionally.

I think it's fine if Letby's friends want to say that they still care about her, or they still like her, or they think she was under some duress, or maybe claim she needs to be checked for a brain tumor changing her behavior. That's their prerogative. But declaring that they're sure she didn't do it is a bit shit, don't you think? No need to take it so far. Acting like a dick to the parents isn't virtuous, you know?
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Parents should love their children unconditionally.

I think it's fine if Letby's friends want to say that they still care about her, or they still like her, or they think she was under some duress, or maybe claim she needs to be checked for a brain tumor changing her behavior. That's their prerogative. But declaring that they're sure she didn't do it is a bit shit, don't you think? No need to take it so far. Acting like a dick to the parents isn't virtuous, you know?
Yes, you're right
 

ghost

Well-known member
Art should represent good morals and values. If those values are idealized, all the better: art should represent values our actual society fails to realize. Art is filled with idealized images of men. Do you want to say that Superman is evil, and no story about him can ever convey a good moral? There's nothing wrong with aspirational art. Art that draws from imagination rather than experience can be good art.

Suppose a man has only ever known abusive women. By your logic, this man should only ever portray women as evil and abusive in his art. How is that good representation of women in art? I want to represent female characters who portray positive role models for men and women. If I act like you, I can only do that if I've known female role models in real life. But incels lack female role models in their real life. Why not invent some female role models? Your vision of art is inimical to imagination.
I have at no point said that art "should" do anything. This is your stance—rectify the art in order to produce the right society. It's an attitude that produces bad art and a bad society.

Make whatever art you want—the act of doing it is itself a part of the process of civilization, even if—maybe especially if—it seems "bad."
 

ghost

Well-known member
No no, Mr. Tea, if a man loves his child he's going against his natural manly qualities (being evil) and that makes him feminine.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
No no, Mr. Tea, if a man loves his child he's going against his natural manly qualities (being evil) and that makes him feminine.
Dammit! Now I've got to buy a whole new wardrobe of girly dresses (probably with flowers on them) in order to be a male lesbian.
 

?!..!?

Well-known member
Dammit! Now I've got to buy a whole new wardrobe of girly dresses (probably with flowers on them) in order to be a male lesbian.
I told you, Male Lesbianism doesn't involve crossdressing.
I have at no point said that art "should" do anything. This is your stance—rectify the art in order to produce the right society. It's an attitude that produces bad art and a bad society.

Make whatever art you want—the act of doing it is itself a part of the process of civilization, even if—maybe especially if—it seems "bad."
This is an unbelievably confusing post. It's self contradictory. You say judging art produces bad art. That's a judgment of art. Then you make the contrary judgment that we should make bad art.

I will say that there is no one way to make good art. Plenty of good art features no idealizations and is drawn mostly from experience. I was just defending the creation of new imaginary characters in art.
 

?!..!?

Well-known member
Only if you're genuinely of the belief that "understanding theory" is akin to worship or self-purification can it even make sense to think that the man who knows nothing of feminism but is kind and understanding to his friends is worthy of denigration, or that our friendless hermit is doing literally anything of value whatsoever.

This is basically an admission that you believe that studying theory has no value.

Also, you didn't address my main point. Can men do feminism in all-male spaces? If not, they can only do feminism in relation to women. That is essentialism.
 
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