The Hater's Thread

corneilius

Well-known member
Making hay .....

polystyle desu said:
Welly well
Thread seemed to right itself ,
John had some good second thoughts , and I hear you Sizzle .

Corneilius , I had to rd again
'After the artist has done something genuinely useful ... like making hay'

Yea, I think Dissensus has lots of humor , of quite a few sorts

Everytime I rd this thread I think too bad more people are not creators , then maybe they would not be so mad ...
Coming home tired after doing for the 'community' and THEN one can 'play' -
are we talking agrarian society here or shame based ?
lol! No I do not in any way wish for a shame based anything - to be an affective activist one must be at core shame-free, happy and connected to life's incredible energy - otherwise it's a path to burn-out. This activism is a life-times journey.

What I was trying to get at is the 'Artist' does not stand alone, Ivory Towered, for his own sake, or for arts sake and must somewhere realise and connect with the vital importance and of the community, not just for the audience, for it is the environment we all live in, it is each other, the plants and animals, rocks and water, the fish, the birds and the air.

Without that reailsation, and the connection, the artist is just another lonely television blaring it's message out just for the sake of it.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
So Cornelius, do you not recognize the relevance of the "quest" aspect of artistic endeavour, that search for something in one's art which lies just out of reach, existing not in terms of commerce, or politics, or an audience, merely in terms of the artist and their art? This vision quest thing seems to me to be the prime reason why a lot of artists choose to pursue so doggedly their lines of enquiry- they hear something in the gaps between certain things they listen to and it beckons them, bades them to will that which is not into existence.

As far as the culpability of the Bobono-creature-nexus, the way I think about is as follows...

Geldoff- I think he acts from a position of extreme, desperate empathy, that need to do something RIGHT NOW, to save this particular child who is dying right in front of him behind the skin of the tv screen. This desperate humanist instinct leads him to focus on the here-and-now, and leads him into, what I would firmly describe as evil, or immorality, certainly. His inability to realise that political and economic solutions need to be as long term as possible, and that in fact in order to save a much greater no. of people in the third world in the future it would be best if the reaction to a crisis was not what is effectively a sticking plaster solution. By that I mean one that makes us feel better, may help some specific people in front of us right now, but which actually means that the Weast can just sit back and think, "hey- we've done our bit, no need to care anymore, at least not until the next crisis..."

Bono- Acts from a different position, more rational perhaps, but just as misguided, and in many respects intoxicated with his proximity to real power (and his seeming ability to "make a difference")-- just as those politicians and leaders who meet with him are intoxicated by his stardom. -- but the qustion remains- what the fuck has Bono actually achieved??

Both operate enterprises which benefit directly from the system of economic governance which is the root cause of the problems which they appear to campaign against. They would argue, I am sure, that they are being pragmatic, and that if they did not have the wealth which they possess currently then the global economic situation would not collapse--- and that given their position of influence it is better to attempt to lever some progress out of those in power. However, what they fail to recognise is that the need from them as performers means that they deliver a glib, blandly feelgood sticking plaster of a solution, which leads to no resolution of the grander problems. The only narratives they understand are ones with a happy ending, and they appear to have some kind of psychological need to supply us with one...

What is needed is no more empathy, no more bleeding hearts, but utterly cold rationalism. The antidote to the Bobono-creature-thing's need for the glib conclusion--- the understanding that this will take hundreds of years to put right, if we even have that long... But I doubt that kind of message is communicable to the public at large in the same way as live aid style pity-politics. Its not pity thats needed, its thought, crystal clear, long term strategies... not a Hallmark card view of how to put things right. The Western masses need to feel bad, disgusted with themselves and their, our, utter complicity, and to feel this way ALL THE TIME.
 
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tatarsky

Well-known member
The crucial problem with Bobono is that both are fully paid up members of Capitalist Realism, believing that current system can work with just a few tweaks here and there, essentially.

Bono's endorsement of the AMEX RED card, whereby 1% goes to a global fund to fight AIDS is a perfect illustration. Nevermind that the remaining 99% is working significantly harder in the other direction.

They're not against being bad, they're against feeling bad, which is probably worse.
 

corneilius

Well-known member
gek-opel said:
So Cornelius, do you not recognize the relevance of the "quest" aspect of artistic endeavour, that search for something in one's art which lies just out of reach, existing not in terms of commerce, or politics, or an audience, merely in terms of the artist and their art? This vision quest thing seems to me to be the prime reason why a lot of artists choose to pursue so doggedly their lines of enquiry- they hear something in the gaps between certain things they listen to and it beckons them, bades them to will that which is not into existence.

...........

What is needed is no more empathy, no more bleeding hearts, but utterly cold rationalism. The antidote to the Bobono-creature-thing's need for the glib conclusion--- the understanding that this will take hundreds of years to put right, if we even have that long... But I doubt that kind of message is communicable to the public at large in the same way as live aid style pity-politics. Its not pity thats needed, its thought, crystal clear, long term strategies... not a Hallmark card view of how to put things right. The Western masses need to feel bad, disgusted with themselves and their, our, utter complicity, and to feel this way ALL THE TIME.
gek-opel, I see what you are pointing out to me, and you are so right that there is the 'quest' ... however I would add two thoughts a) how much of that quest is a personal one, to do with the development of ones knowledge of ones psyche, and ought not that aspect of the quest be part of a life examined, for anyone? 2) is it possible that the need for such a quest is due to the repression/suppression that is so much part of our culture, as we are talking about art from our cultural perspective? If so would removing the repression/suppression remove the need for the quest?

Either way such a quest is to be honoured, and indeed if the answers found can be shared as information, a communication of the transpersonal, to help others in their quest, then the artist has definitely been of help to his/her community insofar as it offers encouragement to others. Hopefully the artist themselves will also reap the reward of such work.

And you are spot on with your perception regarding how we must really feel about the depradations of our complicity, and the need for a committment to work towards something that we will not neccesarily see in our own lifetimes, a committment to something more than how we personally will feel, beyoind any guarantee of success. To committ to a positive, healthy end we will not see or be present to take pleasure in. That is a real gift indeed.

A deep appreciation and perhaps gratitude for all that has passed before us would help in this regard perhaps. In this respect the ancients venerated their ancestors, and that helped them stay in touch with the future, as they would have seen it "our present was their future" We are greater if we extend ourselves, our concern for one another, beyond our own span, are we not?

As I see it, it has to be a real empathy that fuels that perspective in me, not the kind of erstatz empathy that wants to salve the wound so I do not have to bear to see it anymore, the empathy that seeks a comfort but the empthy of one who knows suffering for what it is.

I see unconditional love as being kind of cold, unsentimental. Therefore it is unrelenting in its action, as I imagine a Ghandi or ML King would be. Chomksy says, and I agree with him, that activism is a life long committment, and is not to be entered into lightly, for to do so offers up the temptation to say at some time enough! no more! and to stop, thus leaving those one would be seeking to help, in the lurch. That sort of committment is what is needed. And it has to be balanced with the ability to care for oneself, for that is what underpins the long march.
 
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gek-opel

entered apprentice
Cornelius: I am unsure on the precise nature of the vision quest, but helpful to me was a quote (I think I first read it in the liner notes to Scott Walker's "Scott 4" Album) from Albert Camus: "A man's work is nothing but this slow trek to rediscover, through the detours of art, those two or three great and simple images in whose presence his heart first opened." That pretty much crystalises it down, its almost a spiritual quest in some respects, and one to find through creativity a way to recapture those moments when Art first enabled you to experience a moment of transcendence, or epiphany. Because simply re-experiencing that Art is not enough, the moment is lost-- trying to find a way back to that through he creation of one's own is really how it could best be described. Perhaps this is why historically so much Art has been devoted to God- the analogy between the spirtual and the artistic quest is clear. In this way creativity, especially in music that most inately abstract and emotive of forms, is an expression of a metaphysical relationship with the world, a quest for transcendence. Though I would think most artists would not necessarily see it in those terms!

In terms of empathy and the fight against global injustice I think the problem comes in that empathy is an emotion, a human emotion, and makes sense on a human scale. As such when dealing with problems of this enormity, it is almost insufficient to the task at hand- we have not evolved/been taught how to feel on this level. So it leads us to errors, errors of passion, but errors none the less. This is why thinking of it in terms of justice seems to me a better way of formulating the emotional response, a need for justice in the world, to change things becase of their inherent injustice. But I have to agree with you on the need for a life-long commitment- the only way to solve problems of this size....
 
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gek-opel

entered apprentice
anyway.... this is the Hater's thread, right?

I need to mention Orson- so bland as to be unable to properly describe, almost aerodynamic music in the way yr mind slips off its surface....

And Hard-fi. Somebody stop them. Please. The main singer chap has an emminently punchable face, the smug preening way he delivers the marble-mouthed banalities of his lyrics-- dear God the lyrics... I wondered who bought their records, then one day whilst queuing in WH Smiths I saw who did, balding middle aged Q-reading man.

Easy targets... praps.
 

corneilius

Well-known member
why quest for what is already there?

gek-opel said:
Cornelius: I am unsure on the precise nature of the vision quest, but helpful to me was a quote (I think I first read it in the liner notes to Scott Walker's "Scott 4" Album) from Albert Camus: "A man's work is nothing but this slow trek to rediscover, through the detours of art, those two or three great and simple images in whose presence his heart first opened." That pretty much crystalises it down, its almost a spiritual quest in some respects, and one to find through creativity a way to recapture those moments when Art first enabled you to experience a moment of transcendence, or epiphany. Because simply re-experiencing that Art is not enough, the moment is lost-- trying to find a way back to that through he creation of one's own is really how it could best be described. Perhaps this is why historically so much Art has been devoted to God- the analogy between the spirtual and the artistic quest is clear. In this way creativity, especially in music that most inately abstract and emotive of forms, is an expression of a metaphysical relationship with the world, a quest for transcendence. Though I would think most artists would not necessarily see it in those terms!

In terms of empathy and the fight against global injustice I think the problem comes in that empathy is an emotion, a human emotion, and makes sense on a human scale. As such when dealing with problems of this enormity, it is almost insufficient to the task at hand- we have not evolved/been taught how to feel on this level. So it leads us to errors, errors of passion, but errors none the less. This is why thinking of it in terms of justice seems to me a better way of formulating the emotional response, a need for justice in the world, to change things becase of their inherent injustice. But I have to agree with you on the need for a life-long commitment- the only way to solve problems of this size....

Gottta rush so it's coming out quick : I feel the first quest, for us in the west, is to find one's true essence, one's core being/intention, which in our culture has always been beaten/conditioned out of reach - hence the preoccupation with god - the out of reach other. If I did not know it was within, I will not look there, and the outward search for self is by it's very nature infinite, endless, never satisfied.

Indigenous peoples quest, because they see their children for who they are from the start, and allow that essence to be expressed in the child so the child knows who they are within, tends towards the community, and one's role within that community, with a strong element of awareness of all that has past and all that is to come. This places one's life in the context of that lineage of existence, and the future that one's childrens childrens childrens children will live. It gells one's being in context beyond the single lifetime. it makes the connection with Universe.

One reason I say this is that often, and certainly for myself, the first experiences with hallucingens more involve projections/visions based upon the conditioning I/one lived through and was in parts unaware of. Once one gets past that, no easy task, there is then a release, a great joy, creativity and empathy with life itself. A desire to play and live creatively in a reflection and empathy with life.

from wikipedia : Empathy is the recognition and understanding of the states of mind, beliefs, desires, and particularly, emotions of others. ....

I use the word less in the emotional sense (which I understand you to use it, above, and I agree that that kind of empathy is ... not enough - too much like sympathy, too emotional and not enough feeling in it, not enough strength in it to deal with what we are talking about) and more in the sense of recognising another state of mind, state of physical being that is visceral and cerebral at the same time - so for me empathy has this element of comprehension of the other, enabling a communication that makes a connection that is then felt by the other as full understanding. Action from such a place will be of benefit to the other, as it will see the full picture and make the connection that we are one.

Maybe we, you and I, are using different ways of saying similar things - and maybe we use the same words, yet we have different experiences of what those words mean and so are describing different realities - they all exist, and integrating different perceptions is part of the path of wisdom, the goal of discourse as I see it.

Should that integration lead to healthier behaviour between humans, then there is the proof one really needs to see : certainly the only thing of real value and meaning, as I see it.

If you know the medialens site, there is a great essay there that touches on this :

http://www.medialens.org/cogitations/060211_the_ultimate_propagandist.php

Laters .. will be busy for a few days ... will look in to see how it's going ... cheers to all
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
Ofcourse art serves specific functions in society. recent historians have postulated that Art, Religion, and Government all used to be much closer together, in fact a single cohesive, unified system, at the dawn of civilization. (for instance shamens embody all 3) and this system was created as a replacement, as substitute, for what we had lost with the advent of civilization (the Fall if you will).

(just a little perspective: civilization - roughly 10,000 years. time humans spent on earth prior to civilization - 4 Million years. this has a multitude of implications which makes most of what we have been taught about our ancestors entirely false. but this is a discussion for another time and place... )

in addition to what some might deem the more abstract spiritual functions of art, I've just bought a copy of this book:


which is about artists who make work which transforms specific environments, (perhaps as kind of a logical extension of "earth works") it is fascinating, beautiful, and very, very functional.

just to name one example out of hundreds - Mel Chin's "Revival Field" (1990-1993) makes use of plants to absorb toxic metals from the soil.
 

corneilius

Well-known member
hated tunes

"god save our queen" or "star spangled banner", especially from the point of view of what is happening right now. See the threads on legislative reform for more info. Wakey Wakey!
 

Numbers

Well-known member
Hahaha!

This thread is even funnier than the Burial one. Never saw so much confirmations of the allegedly good taste gathered in one thread. Seems like you guys really enjoy indulging in the elitist position you placed yourself in.

Actually, I'd be quite curious what a 'guilty pleasures'-thread would result in.
 

mms

sometimes
m99188868 said:
Hahaha!

This thread is even funnier than the Burial one. Never saw so much confirmations of the allegedly good taste gathered in one thread. Seems like you guys really enjoy indulging in the elitist position you placed yourself in.

Actually, I'd be quite curious what a 'guilty pleasures'-thread would result in.


here you are you can excercise your reflexive counter snobbery some more now:
http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=3217&page=1&pp=15&highlight=guilty
 

Numbers

Well-known member
mms said:
here you are you can excercise your reflexive counter snobbery some more now:
http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=3217&page=1&pp=15&highlight=guilty

Thanks. I should hit the search-button before opening my mouth. Quite disappointing to notice nobody likes over-produced euro-trance arpeggio's though.

Oh and maybe you should consider that the tone in which conversations are held here or even the (pseudo-)academical manner of formulating arguments and the oh-so correctness of the tastes demonstrated just might turn out hilarious for somebody not familiar with this forum. That doesn't imply that I'm feeling superior to anybody of you.
 

bassnation

the abyss
bruno said:
no, i think the comedic tour de force is the list. the nico thing, well..

well, i'm not that hung up over nico - and never heard the cropophillia thing before - but if its good enough for british liberal democrat MPs then why not? ;)

anyway - i've chilled out a bit now - was having a bad day i think.
 

soundslike1981

Well-known member
m99188868 said:
Thanks. I should hit the search-button before opening my mouth. Quite disappointing to notice nobody likes over-produced euro-trance arpeggio's though.

Oh and maybe you should consider that the tone in which conversations are held here or even the (pseudo-)academical manner of formulating arguments and the oh-so correctness of the tastes demonstrated just might turn out hilarious for somebody not familiar with this forum. That doesn't imply that I'm feeling superior to anybody of you.


I've always had the impression that people here know what they like and like it sincerely--even when I don't know what the hell they're talking about (ie Burial). In other words, everyone here seems to be a pretty far-gone music geek/addict, which in my book means being cool or "correct" (which I can only assume means acceptable/hipster-approved) is no longer a concern.

As for the rhetorical approach, I'll take this place's complete sentences approach over the usual 'u r teh ghey,' 'haha pornfreak' verbal nausea ad naseum "content" of most messageboards. The internet doesn't have to dictate discourse that fits the style of a thoroughly bored, lazy ironic-t-shirt-wearing university student. If that's snobbery, I can live with it.

Anyway, care to suggest an alternative, instead of potshotting?
 

luka

Well-known member
i hate the irish, yorkshiremen, liverpudlians,australian men(but not women), americans, people from north london, people from west london, suburbanites, students, theory, people who read theory, religious people, sanctimonious people, careerists,self-promoters,artists, photographers, archtiects, people who work in design,peoplewho work in advertising/marketing, stand up comedians, successful people, rich people, people in richmond, surrey,saffron walden etc, essex boys and girls, the I'm alright Jack attitude, selfish people, people who follow politics, people who have opinions on the middle east, opinions in general,teenagers, old people, 30somethings, people in their mid to late 20s, kids, parents, good looking people, drivers, vegetarians (although i am vegetarian) cyclists (although i ride a bike) anyone weraing badges demonstrating a political/ethical allegience (free trade, free nelson mandela, free palestine) christians, salesmen, rugby fans, oxbridge graduates, graduates of any stripe,students, croydon,streatham, archway, tuffnel park, holloway, people who live in hampstead, people you see in borough market, teachers, white middle aged men in ethnic style headgear, stubble,grey hair, the sort that go on marches,self-righteous cunts, people who read philososphy books, poseurs, people who move to london to make it in the media/arts world etc, anyone who works in media,anyone who went to art shcool, racists, hypocrites,people who read the guardian, people who read the mail, people who read the telegraph, television presenters,breakfast radio djs,radio 1, indie kids,camden, european teenage tourists with badly dyed/braided hair, people who sell shit weed, cokeheads (fuck off you lying overbearing boorish cunts), men, shoreditch, labrooke grove, brixton, st johns wood, ambitious people, romford on a saturday night, letchworth, the north, the northern irish accent, pikey spanish kids with dreads going to a trance night, israelis, south africans, south african accents, hackney squatters,crusties,people who think they are creative, prigs, self-assured people, misonginists, the overly precious, men in pink ties and hair gel (often estate agents) Foxtons minis,(slash the tyres) pissed, screeching women, vivacious, bubbly girls, (think chantelle) white rastas, people who don't say thank you when you've just gone out of your way to hold the door open for the ungrateful cunts, deluze and guattri and anyone who references them, continental philospohy in general, city workers, suits in shoreditch, bars full of suits and pentup aggression/frustration, bendy buses, bigots, people who want to tell you about how immigrants are fucking this country up, chelsea supporters, camp homosexuals, old compton street, graham norton, people who go to the gym, people who only buy organic vegetables, goths and miserabilists, mancunians, the myth of madchester, hippy myths,punk wars myths(this more than anything),summer of love myths, dance music DJs, amateur DJs, boy racers, SUV/4x4 drivers, onemanupmanship among music fans (yeah,postpunk from finland, rarely rare) anal people, middle england and its smug mediocrity, tory voters, english cities which aren't london (manchester looks like Ilford but less glamourous) the home counties, 'chuggers', kids listenening to shitty grime tunes through a horrible, tinny mobile phone speaker on the bus, kids gleeful conversations about violence, english weather, english light, people who are into 'film' boys in tight jeans (you stupid cunts) boys in dirty white converse all stars, do-gooders, dubstep nights (like standing in the basement of blackmarket records for 5 hours) people who wrote for the student newspaper, people who got involved in extra-curricular activities at school, grasses, sneerers, people who can only see faults and affect in other people, girls wearing stupid art school/fashion school clothes, social workers, philistines, supercillious twats working in independent record stores, people who jog, hair gel, aftershave, boys who moisturise, the modern workplace,work itself, other cyclists who overtake you when you're stopped at a red light, boys who dresss like premiership footballers (distressed denim, expensive shirt, hair gel) happy people, anti-social behaviour, people smoking cigerrettes too close to me, aggessive people,manipulative people, 'clubbing' 'having fun' kids on a school trip when you're trying to walk round an art gallery or museum, nick cohen, david arranovitch,mark melting wax face lawson, television, middle brow anything, the booker prize, the establishment, chinos, taking the party line without thinking, people who think they are 'sprirtual' new age kooks, crystal strokers, tree huggers, acid causalties, people who are into 'majick' people who think they are clever, people who talk in art galleries as if they're aome sort of art historian connesuier(exquisite brushwork, very dynamic) opinions again, more than anything, people in general, prying people, suspicious minds, fashion/style magazines, trednspotters, bloggers, blogs, people writing about music, people writing about anything, people writing, people writing for blogs as if they were writing for mainstream publications with capsule reviews in journalese, you sad cunts, people who just regurgitate information from books to sound clever and erudite ('in 1940 modernist composer Shemtomich joined forces with neo-collagist and racontuer, the Hungarian Boris Kapovari to create etc etc etc') drunk people, people on E, Stevanage, drum and bass, waiting for buses, people who are too earnest, Andrew Motion, Salman Rushdies smug face....

to be honest i could go on for days...
 

luka

Well-known member
more hate

he pasty-faced, ill-looking people who work in and patronise 'health-food' stores and resturaunts, whingers, whiners, mopers, people who think God loves them, that they have all the answers just cos they happened to make a lot of money, passive-aggressives, people who try to tell you how to live your life, people who try to argue with you about something they know fuck all about, 'lads' red faced, drunk and leering, pack animals on the lash, the herd mentality, mosquitoes, flies, gnats, people who think they're better than other people becasue they're 'intelligent' people with a good 'work ethic' artists 'installations' , psychogeography, people who shopped in Mr Bongo, people who read job advertisments which ask 'are you goal-orientated, self-motivated, do you work well in a team, are you out going and go getting?' and think, yup, thats me, yea-sayers, nay-sayers, preston from the ordinary boys, ordinary boys who look like preston from the ordinary boys, thongs, recreational vioelnce (when not between consenting adults/kids) policemen, bullies, idealists, realists, materialists, rationalists, communists, anarchcists, liberal humanists, people who stand on the street selling the SWP newspaper, jobsworths, ticket inspectors, people who use their laptops in cafes, people who sit in the front windows of cafes 'writing' tourists in london, guided tours, 'characters' 'eccentrics' litter bugs, puritans, the self-obsessed, tennis, gated communities, private security, ID cards, survelliance, firebrands, orators and demagouges, neurotics, fixed ideas, dogs, people who let their dogs run about without a leash, dog owners in general, dog shit,competitive people, middle management, ciabatta, pebbledash, competitive dads shouting at school football matches, common sense, going round someones house for the first time and not being able to work out how to flush their toilet, stoosh girls, alpha males, people who skin gorrillas alive (i'm running out of ideas a little bit) people who bury other people alive, etc etc
 
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