zhao

there are no accidents
gek-opel said:
The difficulty is engaging with these products in a way which is not distorted by the underlying thought processes between consumerist-subject and consumable-object under late capitalism.

good point mathew... I mean gek-opel.

I went on a juice fast for 45 days last year. no solids, only vegetable and fruit juices, mixed with a little herbal powder. I had unmistakably higher than normal energy levels, ability to focus and concentrate, and did not need to sleep as much.

point being: food is a drug and an addiction. we are addicted to the pacifying chemicals our brains produce in reaction to all food (not only fatty foods), and we are addicted to the emotional satisfaction of eating.

what our bodies need (minerals and vitamins and a tiny amount of protean) are not found in 99% of the food we eat, which are instead filled with things which slow us down, give us health problems, cause deadly diseases, but taste good.

thus food can be convincingly argued as a much worse addiction than any kind of narcotic - number of users, and lack of awareness of its side effects - fatigue, bowl problems, colon cancer, pre-mature aging, etc - and taking these symptoms for granted, as "natural".
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Sadly I agree, and the current attitude of food-neurosis/obsession that is doing the rounds of late doesn't appear to be helping- people are thinking more about the food they consume, however, Junk Food is now elevated to status of "guilty pleasure", and therefore a treat, just like crack cocaine... And bowel problems are no laughing matter...
 
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Troy

31 Seconds
(I finally found the K-Punk article referenced in the Thread Title. It took a while, because on the internet 3/12/04 sometimes means March 12th and sometimes means December 3rd....)

I think that K-punk is trying to describe a cat by looking at a dog. One puff of a joint can reveal insights and connections that might never be made by a sober dissatisfied anti-Kapital warrior working intently all life long to assimilate the entire output of all Western philosophical thought. It’s somewhat like getting the benefit of meditation and the breaking of discriminating thought... like solving a Koan...

Philosophy means “love of wisdom”, and all true wisdom is gained by first-hand experience.
 

tryptych

waiting for a time
gek-opel said:
In other societies recreational drugs were used in spiritual ritualistic contexts, rather than the all-consuming context of consumer-capitalism. This approach would make more sense. The difficulty is engaging with these products in a way which is not distorted by the underlying thought processes between consumerist-subject and consumable-object under late capitalism.


And this also happens in Western societies. My problem with this later discussion in this thread is the portrayal of "drug culture" as a homogenous mass. Yes, "drug culture...is capitalism at its destructive purest" if by "drug culture" we mean the general usage and mechanisms of supply of coke, E, heroin and cannabis.

However, this is not the case with the niche undeground use of psychedelics. Mescaline and DMT are prime examples - almost impossible to buy from drug dealers, and vastly overpriced when available, there are plenty of enthusiasts who extract their own from plant sources for relatively low cost. Many of these people also participate in some degress of spirtual ritual, whether imported from indigenous cultures (like the ayahuasca churches of brazil) or of other, more individual syncretic kinds.

"Designer" phenethylamines and tryptamines fall between the two previous categories - lab manufactured on a small scale as cottage industries for legal ones, or illicitly made and distributed through limited networks of interested parties, with minimal profit margins (compared to cocaine etc). Depending on the particular drugs subjective effects and the user group, there use will be more or less "spiritual" on one hand or facilitating of the acceptance of consumer-capitalism on the other.
 

Padraig

Banned
The Party Never Ends

Sherief: "I'm intrigued by the fact that this discussion is in the "Thought" section..."

Yes, its vintage aside, it might be more suitably positioned under Biology without Biopolitics? , the thread you started recently, only that it too is in the "Thought" section :)

Have a Smoke

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The Deluxe Man Ray Selection

Gek-opel: "Padraig nails it with Psychedelic Fascism. "

The term originated in 1972, in Stanley Kubrick's response to liberal nihilist Fred M. Hechinger's New York Times article accusing A Clockwork Orange of being "the essence of fascism" :
"Hechinger asks, 'Is this an uncharitable reading of...the film's thesis?' Mr. Hechinger asks himself with unwanted if momentary doubt. I would reply that it is an irrelevant reading of the thesis, in fact an insensitive and inverted reading of the thesis, which, so far from advocating that fascism be given a second chance, warns against the new psychedelic fascism -- the eye-popping, multimedia, quadrasonic, drug-oriented conditioning of human beings by other beings -- which many believe will usher in the forfeiture of human citizenship and the beginning of zombiedom. "​

Gek-opel: "I took it ["psychedelic fascism" as fundamental to abstract pomo Kapitalism's condition of workable possibility] to mean that it was a necessary functional element of capitalism, (as a system by which revolutionary counter-hegemonic energies could be nullified) but the stuff about linking it to post 60s babyboomer/hippie takeover (ie- Gates/Blair) muddies the waters a little- perhaps that bit is a demonstration that those associated with drug-fueled counterculture (tho very, very loosely) are now the leaders and chief architects of late capital. But I think that their links to psychedelics themselves are pretty damn tenuous."

Yes, it makes capitalism more "bearable" (by pretending not really to be a part of it, disavowing it) while conditioning one to its fundamental psychic cause, its psychic modus operandi. I take your point about the post-60s linking being somewhat ambiguous, though I was referring to ex-hippies, of which a larger proportion relative to the overall population are proponents of liberal capitalism [and I might add that the majority of people I've known who were heavy drug-users, a few of them pushers to boot, particularly in college and environs, are now - the ones that survived, that is, - conservative, fully-paid-up endorsers of same, as much as they might like to still imagine otherwise].

Satanmcnugget: " ... given that, using the generic phrase "drugs" to describe and talk about ALL drugs is far too simplistic. "

For sure, yes, and I'm reminded here of Sherief's question in the Biopolitics thread: "I'm not here to praise biopolitics, but to bury it. The question I have is, assuming there is escape or emancipation from this vast biopolitical paradigm, what Agamben gloomily calls the "nomos of the camps," how do we save medicine? [ ... ] Then, perhaps I/We can rephrase the question- How does one protect/save life without separating bios from zoe? Can we perform medical procedures without the political procedure of exception?"

I'm also reminded of seeing the late Dennis Potter during his last TV interview scooping back glassfulls of liquid morphine to ease the excruciating pain of his cancer-riddled body, or further back still to Freud's discovery of cocaine as an anaesthetic [for which some neurologist took all the credit] ... and, as Gek-opel concludes concerning the perils of drugs under commodity fetishism, "In other societies recreational drugs were used in spiritual ritualistic contexts, rather than the all-consuming context of consumer-capitalism. This approach would make more sense. The difficulty is engaging with these products in a way which is not distorted by the underlying thought processes between consumerist-subject and consumable-object under late capitalism." But the problem, of course, is the "all-consuming context of consumer-capitalism" which by definition then problematizes other "approaches."

Have Another Smoke

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... From Spinach to Candy



Sizzle: "As far as K-Punk's article I think there are some truths in there but criticizing weed without ever having smoked is like criticizing a book you've only heard about from others, basically weak. If he wanted to make an informed critique that people who smoke would take seriously he would have to engage with his subject and try smoking. Otherwise he's basically preaching to the converted and will certainly not reach people like me."

Theory shouldn't, however unwittingly, be confused with subjectivized, anecdotal "personal experience," which is invariably self-justifying as it ignores the palimpsest of social forces that ultimately determine it. Try your approach with War: you must first engage with war-mongerers and try slaughtering in order to be able to make an informed critique that people who slaughter can take seriously, etc.

Confucious: "... but while capitalism may want us to be asleep, unaware, and addicted, with no autonomy of thought or action, at the same time it wants us to be productive, to unwaveringly conform and participate in the official culture, and most of all whole-heartedly believe in the dominant ideology and take all of its illusions for granted."


Yes, that is its official narrative, broadcast by all its institutions, though it clearly isn't how ideology works. What makes it work [and here I agree with Zizek] is the act of disavowal, is the "awareness" that we do not fully conform to it, is the sense of distance, the belief that lurking outside of it is an autonomous, real and authentic human being, a belief that leads to all kinds of fetishistic practices [ from drugs to spiritual fads to the quest for Self] while all the time leaving ideology fully intact. And yes, capitalism is pretty successful at doing this, keeping us, as you say, asleep, unaware, and addicted. Without the - widespread - belief in that underlying "authentic, trans-ideological hard kernal" of precious selfdom ideology cannot work. Pass the reefer, dude ... :)

And Then Have Some More

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Sarah Lucas, Nature Abhors a Vacuum, 1998, cigarettes
... Damien Hirst, Horror at Home, 1995
 
D

droid

Guest
As other posters have mentioned I think the suggestion that the spiritual dimension to drug use has been utterly subsumed by hedonistic consumer capitalism is false, it jarrs utterly with my own experiences, and with those of most of the people I know. Theres some truth to it Im sure, but It's too polarised a view in my opinion.

And might I also convey my shock that Padraig supports this theory. I had him down as the kind of guy who sprinkles acid onto his cornflakes in the morning and a few drops of DMT into his bedside cocoa! ;)
 

Padraig

Banned
Caffeine and Teddy Training

Sizzle: "The only drug I can recommend without qualification is COFFEE! Sizzling mud of life, I don't know where I would be without you. Talk about a drug that enhances creativity, I've made way more good music on coffee than I have when smoking."

I particularly liked this quote from Balzac on coffee: [via Charlotte Street:]

"Coffee is a great power in my life; I have observed its effects on an epic scale. ....... coffee sets the blood in motion and stimulates the muscles; it accelerates the digestive processes, chases away sleep, and gives us the capacity to engage a little longer in the exercise of our intellects. ...Coffee changes over time. Rossini has personally experienced some of these effects as, of course, have I. "Coffee," Rossini told me, "is an affair of fifteen or twenty days; just the right amount of time, fortunately, to write an opera." This is true. But the length of time during which one can enjoy the benefits of coffee can be extended. For a while - for a week or two at most - you can obtain the right amount of stimulation with one, then two cups of coffee brewed from beans that have been crushed with gradually increasing force and infused with hot water. For another week, by decreasing the amount of water used, by pulverizing the coffee even more finely, and by infusing the grounds with cold water, you can continue to obtain the same cerebral power. When you have produced the finest grind with the least water possible, you double the dose by drinking two cups at a time; particularly vigorous constitutions can tolerate three cups. In this manner one can continue working for several more days. Finally, I have discovered a horrible, rather brutal method that I recommend only to men of excessive vigor, men with thick black hair and skin covered with liver spots, men with big square hands and legs shaped like bowling pins. It is a question of using finely pulverized, dense coffee, cold and anhydrous, consumed on an empty stomach. ...this coffee falls into your stomach ... it brutalizes these beautiful stomach linings as a wagon master abuses ponies; the plexus becomes inflamed; sparks shoot all the way up to the brain. From that moment on, everything becomes agitated. ... Memories charge in, bright flags on high; the cavalry of metaphor deploys with a magnificent gallop; the artillery of logic rushes up with clattering wagons and cartridges; on imagination's orders, sharpshooters sight and fire; forms and shapes and characters rear up; the paper is spread with ink - for the nightly labor begins and ends with torrents of this black water, as a battle opens and concludes with black powder. ...When you have reached the point of consuming this kind of coffee, then become exhausted and decide that you really must have more,... you will fall into horrible sweats, suffer feebleness of the nerves, and undergo episodes of severe drowsiness. I don't know what would happen if you kept at it then: a sensible nature counseled me to stop at this point, seeing that immediate death was not otherwise my fate. To be restored, one must begin with recipes made with milk and chicken and other white meats: finally the tension on the harp strings eases, and one returns to the relaxed, meandering, simple-minded, and cryptogamous life of the retired bourgeoisie. The state coffee puts one in when it is drunk on an empty stomach under these magisterial conditions produces a kind of animation that looks like anger: one's voice rises, one's gestures suggest unhealthy impatience: one wants everything to proceed with the speed of ideas; one becomes brusque, ill-tempered about nothing... One assumes that everyone is equally lucid. A man of spirit must therefore avoid going out in public. I discovered this singular state ... some friends, with whom I had gone out to the country, witnessed me arguing about everything, haranguing with monumental bad faith. ... We found the problem soon enough: coffee wanted its victim."​
Nescafe, Maxwell House anyone?

As a footnote we might add that Balzac, following an addiction that led to him consuming up to 50 toxic cuppas a day, eventually took to his bed - and died of Caffeine poisoning.

EWS_Nicole_Kidman_051.jpg


...... "I've an idea! The most important thing we should do right now - let's go home to our cuddly bedroom and smoke more pot and stuff! "
 

Padraig

Banned
droid said:
As other posters have mentioned I think the suggestion that the spiritual dimension to drug use has been utterly subsumed by hedonistic consumer capitalism is false, it jarrs utterly with my own experiences, and with those of most of the people I know. Theres some truth to it Im sure, but It's too polarised a view in my opinion.

And might I also convey my shock that Padraig supports this theory. I had him down as the kind of guy who sprinkles acid onto his cornflakes in the morning and a few drops of DMT into his bedside cocoa! ;)

Er ... um, but I still like William Hurt's drug-induced, sensory-deprivation epiphanies in Ken Russell's 1984 Altered States, I do I do I do. Apologies Druid, but I don't eat cornflakes in the morning, thought I do recall obsessively gazing up-close - for what seemed like a life-time - at the world's largest orange once, owing to a never-since-repeated lucy-in-the-skies trip ... SHOCK HORROR, "spiritual dimension" revealed!
 
D

droid

Guest
Padraig said:
Er ... um, but I still like William Hurt's drug-induced, sensory-deprivation epiphanies in Ken Russell's 1984 Altered States, I do I do I do. Apologies Druid, but I don't eat cornflakes in the morning, thought I do recall obsessively gazing up-close - for what seemed like a life-time - at the world's largest orange once, owing to a never-since-repeated lucy-in-the-skies trip ... SHOCK HORROR, "spiritual dimension" revealed!

laugh.gif
Well if you really dont do drugs - you seriously need to start!

What are you doing posting at this hour btw? I thought you turned to stone once the sun came up like the rest of the goblins...
 

tryptych

waiting for a time
droid said:
. I had him down as the kind of guy who sprinkles acid onto his cornflakes in the morning and a few drops of DMT into his bedside cocoa! ;)

DMT is not, of course, orally active on its own - it's cleaved by MAOs in the gut and never makes it to the brain.

/drug pedant :)
 
D

droid

Guest
spackb0y said:
DMT is not, of course, orally active on its own - it's cleaved by MAOs in the gut and never makes it to the brain.

/drug pedant :)

Well duh! I wouldve assumed he would have pre-mixed it with beta-carbolines! :D
 

D84

Well-known member
Padraig said:
: The term originated in 1972, in Stanley Kubrick's response :
"the thesis, which, so far from advocating that fascism be given a second chance, warns against the new psychedelic fascism -- the eye-popping, multimedia, quadrasonic, drug-oriented conditioning of human beings by other beings -- which many believe will usher in the forfeiture of human citizenship and the beginning of zombiedom. "​

Good movie - great director but if that really is the case imho that film makes more sense as a mediation on violence and society..

Yes, it makes capitalism more "bearable" (by pretending not really to be a part of it, disavowing it) while conditioning one to its fundamental psychic cause, its psychic modus operandi.

If you mean that it's because people a getting a buzz from seeing something on TV and buying it - people don't need drugs for that. I've worked in retail for a long time - not all of it out of choice - and I can assure you that there's a lot of people wandering around shops and shopping centres in a trance (and an arrogant one at that) even without the help of drugs... There's a name for it I'm sure.

I take your point about the post-60s linking being somewhat ambiguous, though I was referring to ex-hippies, of which a larger proportion relative to the overall population are proponents of liberal capitalism [and I might add that the majority of people I've known who were heavy drug-users, a few of them pushers to boot, particularly in college and environs, are now - the ones that survived, that is, - conservative, fully-paid-up endorsers of same, as much as they might like to still imagine otherwise].

I was thinking about this today walking around uni and my main contention with it is that it doesn't take account of a simple class analysis...

Let's look at the backgrounds of some of the people you mention:

Bill Gates :
William Henry Gates III ... was born in Seattle, Washington to William H. Gates, Sr. and Mary Maxwell Gates. His family was wealthy; his father was a prominent lawyer, his mother was the first female Regent of the University of Washington, and his maternal grandfather, J. W. Maxwell, was a national bank president....

According to the 1992 biography Hard Drive, Maxwell set up a million-dollar trust fund for Gates the year he was born.​

Richard Branson :
Branson was the oldest of three siblings. His father, Edward (Ted) Branson was an attorney, in the tradition of the Branson family ancestry...​

Tonee :
Anthony Charles Lynton Blair... spent his early childhood in Adelaide, Australia, where his father was a lecturer in the Faculty of Law at the University of Adelaide... Blair spent the remainder of his childhood years in Durham, England, his father being by then a law lecturer at Durham University. After attending Durham's Chorister School, Blair was educated at Fettes College in Edinburgh (sometimes called the "Eton of Scotland"), where he met Charlie Falconer, whom he later appointed as Lord Chancellor... After Fettes, he read law at St John's College, Oxford.​

George W Bush:
Son of Bush sr, ex-president, old money, Yale, Skull & Bones etc etc.

Geldof:
Couldn't find much to prove my thesis here but what can you say about a man who accepts a knighthood?

So I think a more convincing theory about their "conversion" to the conservative capitalist elite is that they were always a part of it: they were what some people would call trustafarians. In other words they never changed and simply taking drugs won't change a person.

and, as Gek-opel concludes concerning the perils of drugs under commodity fetishism, "In other societies recreational drugs were used in spiritual ritualistic contexts, rather than the all-consuming context of consumer-capitalism. This approach would make more sense.

Well, maybe what's happening is that drugs are being used by those people you deride in a spiritual context but standing in that spiritual space instead is Capital.

"Theory shouldn't, however unwittingly, be confused with subjectivized, anecdotal "personal experience," which is invariably self-justifying as it ignores the palimpsest of social forces that ultimately determine it. Try your approach with War: you must first engage with war-mongerers and try slaughtering in order to be able to make an informed critique that people who slaughter can take seriously, etc. "

But we all commit small acts of violence everyday when we interact socially esp. in a capitalist context - eg. if you work somewhere where you have to exert some kind of authority or discipline over people. So in some sense we can make an informed critique on similar grounds.
 

johneffay

Well-known member
D84 said:
simply taking drugs won't change a person.

Unless, of course, they take enough to give them a habit or tip them over into psychosis ;)

I have a real problem with the distinction being drawn between recreational and spiritual drug use. Whilst I broadly agree with Padraig's claims about drugs and capitalism, I simply don't understand this comment:

Padraig said:
"In other societies recreational drugs were used in spiritual ritualistic contexts, rather than the all-consuming context of consumer-capitalism. This approach would make more sense.

Why would such an approach make more sense? Isn't this simply buying into the idea that altering your brain chemistry allows you to see the world more clearly? If you think that religious rituals actually do this, then I suppose that is at least consistent, but I would suggest that the use of mind-altering substances in the context of such rituals is simply a more efficient way of brainwashing individuals into buying into the religious elements being pushed. In fact drug use in such contexts has a lot in common with the effects that you identify within capitalism.

Something that always amuses me about the 'drugs are spiritual' argument is the way in which certain drugs are held up over others as vectors of spirituality for no good reason, e.g. the plants versus laboratory products argument: If the stuff made in labs has a more intense effect, how could it fail to be more spiritual? I think the whole thing is basically down to people over-romanticising the chemicals of their choice.

Furthermore, there are some forms of drug use which are never seen as spiritual, but why not? Perhaps you can argue the case for things like tranquilisers cutting you off from the spiritual, but how about glue? Intense glue sniffing can create sensations easily on a par in terms of derangement with low to medium grade LSD, and yet nobody claims that Evostick was given to us by God to aid in our evolution.
 

luka

Well-known member
ok, thats not strictly true. people are in mental hospitals cos of that stuff. what i mean is, i certainyl never took acid to be deranged and i don't think derangement is an inevitable consequence of taking acid.
 
D

droid

Guest
johneffay said:
Intense glue sniffing can create sensations easily on a par in terms of derangement with low to medium grade LSD, and yet nobody claims that Evostick was given to us by God to aid in our evolution.

Oh how I wish that were true... :(

Also, Evostik hasnt been growing all over the world for the last few million years, so it was hardly going to aid anyone's evolution now was it?
 

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
John Effay, sorry Fella but it doesn't sound like you really know anything about drugs, certainly nothing about the spiritual or religious usage, and based on the opinion stated about glue sniffing and LSD, not much about the pharmacology either.

Just my opinion like, based on a fair amount of reading on the subject...
 

tryptych

waiting for a time
luka said:
ok, thats not strictly true. people are in mental hospitals cos of that stuff. what i mean is, i certainyl never took acid to be deranged and i don't think derangement is an inevitable consequence of taking acid.

There is no established causal link between LSD and mental health problems - you often hear about people who claim that LSD therapy in the 60s-70s destroyed their lives, gave them psychosis etc. But the studies that were conducted at the time (by Cohen and others), over sample sizes of around 1,000 participents showed a lower incidence of psychosis etc than in the general population.

Subjectively, I'd also agree that LSD doesn't cause derangement.
 

luka

Well-known member
all i have is anecdotal evidence,plenty of people have been left institutionalised after trying hallucengenic drugs. causal relationships are hard to establish,even for something like smoking and lung cancer, but i think, in this case, there probabl is one.
 
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