AIDS: conspiracy or reality?

[scottdisco]

i was referring to the US government. and the stuff i and everyone else was told: "you get it, you die. end of story."

cool. i'm talking about the South African govt. given ideological comfort by sceptics, denialists and so on, they went on a bit of a crazy kick (the ideological comfort was a large contributory factor), and bad things happened. (to understate disgracefully.) tbf we are kinda talking past each other atm, no harm done eh

that said, things posted up-thread by the likes of nomad and mms would suggest that being 'told "you get it, you die. end of story"' is not perhaps quite the whole case, and these are two Dissensians living - respectively - in the USA and UK, two wealthy economies w plenty of big pharma, who have probably also been lectured at by their govts from time to time.
and yet they're not recalling the lecture in quite the same way as you.

ah well.

(is there a *shrugs* icon?)

those statements comprise what i had heard of the denialists' position, and nowhere in this thread, or anywhere else, will you find anything stating that it is MY position.

i clearly said in the opening post: "check this out guys, i heard these people who are not obvious morons, say this CRAZY STUFF right? and i was wondering what you thought about it"

but you people are bent on making me into an AIDS denier.

er. perhaps you missed the post about two pages ago where i state

i can only speak for myself, but please don't infer i am implicitly accusing you of denial. just throwing out something to bear in mind.

again, i never ever said that I BELIEVE the HIV virus does not exist, and that all AIDS medication are made with cyanide.

oh. this again.

i can only speak for myself, but please don't infer i am implicitly accusing you of denial. just throwing out something to bear in mind.

i apologise if it seems i didn't make this clear enough.

 

[zhao]

right-O mister disc-O... i forgot about your disclaimer.

but for rest of the board/world, no matter how many times i make the point

I AM NOT AN AIDS DENIER.

it will likely not be enough... there will always be knee jerk reactions when popular accepted views are questioned.

there are some similarities to how i feel about 9/11. it is of course absurd to deny that it happened, but there are things that the deniers point out that we should pay attention to...

 

[swears]

Some points worth discussing:

*The holocaust never actually happened

*It was a fiction invented in the 1960s by zionists to promote a worldwide Jewish conspiracy

*Jews drink the blood of Christian babies and are secretly evil lizard people

Please keep in mind that these aren't MY opinions but some horseshit I found down the back of the internet and thought I'd share with you for some obscure reason.

 

[john eden]

Some points worth discussing:

*The holocaust never actually happened

*It was a fiction invented in the 1960s by zionists to promote a worldwide Jewish conspiracy

*Jews drink the blood of Christian babies and are secretly evil lizard people

Please keep in mind that these aren't MY opinions but some horseshit I found down the back of the internet and thought I'd share with you for some obscure reason.

I think those are really interesting questions you are raising there Swears, but be warned!

For some reason people tend to get a bit emotional when such questions are raised here - it's almost as if they don't like media-sponsored consensus reality to be questioned too much as it makes them feel insecure!

 

[scottdisco]

sure in places of the world where a complete lifestyle change and radical dietary therapy is not available, drugs can, and do help.

again, i never ever said that I BELIEVE the HIV virus does not exist, and that all AIDS medication are made with cyanide.

this is basically the heart of the matter, from your pov, correct?

i just want to you to stay on-topic, if you can stay on-topic perhaps those w some scientific knowledge can have a fruitful debate w you.

obviously Swears was OTM in his response to your 9/11 mention, you really should scratch that shit from the thread, still, most Politics threads on Dissensus eventually have to mention the USA, UK or (especially) Israel in a very bad light, but we've only been going six pages here, the thread is still young!

so, question for you:

you'd like - where appropriate, in wealthy, stable, mature democracies etc (so hence your caveat that the drugs do work in places like Zimbabwe), where people are able to do so - to scratch the drugs and focus on some holistic nutritive approach and be alright from that pov?

this is basically to get down to brass tacks w what you're saying, yes?
i just want to be clear.

or, you are not advocating anything so forceful, you're more just interested in a generalised, naturally curious, re-assessment (as you see it) of conventional wisdom, and see where it leads? (what w new research coming at us etc.)

p.s.
that said the Je, sorry, i mean Zionist Lobby, is more malign and more powerful and more singularly, exceptionally loathsome than any other lobby group or organisation on earth.

i know this is true, as i read it in The New Statesman.

Swears and Eden of all folks should be aware of this.

 

[mms]

this is basically the heart of the matter, from your pov, correct?

i just want to you to stay on-topic, if you can stay on-topic perhaps those w some scientific knowledge can have a fruitful debate w you.

obviously Swears was OTM in his response to your 9/11 mention, you really should scratch that shit from the thread, still, most Politics threads on Dissensus eventually have to mention the USA, UK or (especially) Israel in a very bad light, but we've only been going six pages here, the thread is still young!

so, question for you:

you'd like - where appropriate, in wealthy, stable, mature democracies etc (so hence your caveat that the drugs do work in places like Zimbabwe), where people are able to do so - to scratch the drugs and focus on some holistic nutritive approach and be alright from that pov?

this is basically to get down to brass tacks w what you're saying, yes?
i just want to be clear.

or, you are not advocating anything so forceful, you're more just interested in a generalised, naturally curious, re-assessment (as you see it) of conventional wisdom, and see where it leads? (what w new research coming at us etc.)

p.s.
that said the Je, sorry, i mean Zionist Lobby, is more malign and more powerful and more singularly, exceptionally loathsome than any other lobby group or organisation on earth.

i know this is true, as i read it in The New Statesman.

Swears and Eden of all folks should be aware of this.

One of the people i know who has hiv works in a drop in centre for hiv, he gives practical and useful advice and discusses treatments with people who have hiv, one of these is of course, the more holistic lifestyle treatments of physical therapy, diet, exercise etc, as well as all the practical and emotional support a person with hiv might need. These treatments recognise the benefits of all these things are completely standard, but meds are also crucial too.

 

[swears]

Zhao, if you believe the AIDS virus is real, then what is the point of even mentioning the opinions of denialist nutters in the first place? What bearing does it have on a serious discussion?

 

[zhao]

so you upstanding and clear headed citizens, Swears and Eden, Nomad and Padraig, in full possession of your rational faculties, and immune from the quacks' silly delusions and the cranks' absurd paranoia, let me ask you this:

how do you account for the huge disparity between

1. the official HIV/AIDS story that a large part of the world has been told since the 1980s, i.e. "no cure: you get it you die", and

2. what Dr. Luc Montagnier is saying in this video, that it is reversible with a super healthy lifestyle?

do you think

A. Dr. Luc Montagnier is out of his mind, or

B. they were honest mistakes made by the medical establishment and pharmaceutical companies, which went uncorrected for 30 years?

i look forward to your sober and enlightening explanation, which will hopefully cure me of my crack-pot fantasies.

 

[zhao]

Zhao, if you believe the AIDS virus is real, then what is the point of even mentioning the opinions of denialist nutters in the first place? What bearing does it have on a serious discussion?

because they point to real problems in the official story which needs to be addressed, and bring up legitimate information on the matter which needs to be evaluated. many things these people talk about can not be so easily dismissed, as convenient as that would be.

and some of what these "nutters" have been saying for many years is at least partially validated by this new information coming out.

 

[baboon2004]

p.s.
that said the Je, sorry, i mean Zionist Lobby, is more malign and more powerful and more singularly, exceptionally loathsome than any other lobby group or organisation on earth.

i know this is true, as i read it in The New Statesman.

Ha! I was working there as an intern when one of the senior Jewish bodies in the UK (not sure of the name, sorry) sent its representatives to complain about the NS's particularly ill-judged "Kosher conspiracy" front cover. Oh to have been a fly on the wall in that meeting...

 

[zhao]

question for you:

you'd like - where appropriate, in wealthy, stable, mature democracies etc (so hence your caveat that the drugs do work in places like Zimbabwe), where people are able to do so - to scratch the drugs and focus on some holistic nutritive approach and be alright from that pov?

i am not a doctor, but i have no good reason to doubt 2 things:

1. the honesty of people i know, respect, and would trust with my own life (and have, to my benefit), their accounts of HIV positives who lead 100% healthy lives without any prescription medication, and

2. what Dr. Luc Montagnier, probably the single most reliable source of information and qualified professional expert on this matter in the world, is saying about it (which sounds very much similar to what the above people have maintained for a long time.)

so, if tomorrow i find out that i should not have had drunken unprotected sex in the back room of that afterhours club in Budapest 3 years ago, and have contracted the HIV virus -- well i would do a lot more research on it first, but based on what i know today -- i would change my lifestyle completely, become a vegan raw foodist, and eat massive amounts of herbs every day, without prescribed medicine.

or, you are not advocating anything so forceful, you're more just interested in a generalised, naturally curious, re-assessment (as you see it) of conventional wisdom, and see where it leads? (what w new research coming at us etc.)

this also sounds good. since there is no rush to get to the bottom of it (last check up was 6 months ago and i haven't been messing around), i will be following the story as it develops.

 

[john eden]

how do you account for the huge disparity between the official HIV/AIDS story that a large part of the world has been told since the 1980s, i.e. "no cure: you get it you die", and ...

Is there a cure for AIDs now? No there isn't.

Will everyone who has AIDs die, at some point? Yes they will.

Am I going to watch the video? No I am not.

Does that make me biased or blinkered? Yes it does.

 

[zhao]

Is there a cure for AIDs now? No there isn't.

Will everyone who has AIDs die, at some point? Yes they will.

Am I going to watch the video? No I am not.

Does that make me biased or blinkered? Yes it does.

yes there is a "cure" now.

if you are not going to review the information provided, on which this conversation is based, you have no place in it, and your statements are irrelevant.

 

[john eden]

yes there is a "cure" now.

if you are not going to review the information provided, on which this conversation is based, you have no place in it, and your statements are irrelevant.

Ha! You're just uncomfortable with my alternative reality, Zhao. C'mon, admit it.

 

[swears]

because they point to real problems in the official story which needs to be addressed, and bring up legitimate information on the matter which needs to be evaluated. many things these people talk about can not be so easily dismissed, as convenient as that would be.

and some of what these "nutters" have been saying for many years is at least partially validated by this new information coming out.

Either AIDS is real or it isn't. If you are of the opinion that it can be cured by "massive amounts of herbs", fine. But the fact still stands that if it is real, then what the denialists say can be discounted, right?

 

[zhao]

if it is real, then what the denialists say can be discounted, right?

no, not entirely. for they bring up things such as perfectly healthy people who have taken no prescription medication, who have been HIV positive for more than a decade. things which can not be easily discounted, rendering the official story problematic.

 

[zhao]

Ha! You're just uncomfortable with my alternative reality, Zhao. C'mon, admit it.

go smoke some pot, dad.

 

[scottdisco]

a quick google reveals stories of long-term survivors like long-time AIDS diagnosed Cameron Siemers, or long-time HIV positively diagnosed Kai Brothers, or long-time HIV positively diagnosed Michael Shernoff (this last one a touching, hopeful piece written by Shernoff himself).

plenty of David Ho in a couple of those articles, btw.

a few things stand out from these articles. one is that research continues to see what factors might be responsible (or contributing) to these sorts of people being with us still (genetics, whatever).

another is that a lot of their peers have passed away from the bug. (how awful for them.) so, most people, die. just to re-iterate. not everyone, but most people.

the third comes near the start of that first link, a piece filed by a small, independent, fiercely contrarian newsagency AP, on the website of little-known news blog MSNBC.

Twenty-five years after federal health officials first recognized the disease that would become known as Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome, AIDS no longer is synonymous with terminal illness.

my point w the sarcasm, Zhao, is that some of your contentions about the establishment here, and its blinkered approach, sound to me a bit straw-mannish.

what, so, a major pillar of the American media can write something the like of which i've just excerpted above and you will maintain that everyone, everywhere else is still parroting the 'catch it and die' line?

everyone?

really?

i think, just maybe, if you dialed down the -truth-seeker-speaking-to-power schtick, you might get a less, er, feisty response on the thread..

P.S.

Once a month Brothers visits the laboratory of Jay Levy, a professor at the University of California, San Francisco, who is director of the university's laboratory for tumor and AIDS virus research. Since the epidemic began in 1981, Levy has been trying to understand why Brothers and others who are HIV-positive can remain medicine-free yet fit for decades while the average person with HIV progresses to AIDS within 10 years, if untreated.

An answer to that question could help in the development of a vaccine...
Although many survivors attribute their good health to exercise, positive thinking, visualization or egg whites, Levy said it was all about genetics. When his subjects ask him why they're surviving so long, Levy said, he tells them, "You chose the right parents."

 

[swears]

no, not entirely. for they bring up things such as perfectly healthy people who have taken no prescription medication, who have been HIV positive for more than a decade. things which can not be easily discounted, rendering the official story problematic.

So what? The "official" story is that there are a number of people genetically inclined to survive longer than others. And obviously lifestyle plays a part in living with any infectious condition. Big whup.

...well i would do a lot more research on it first, but based on what i know today -- i would change my lifestyle completely, become a vegan raw foodist, and eat massive amounts of herbs every day, without prescribed medicine.

This herbal cure for AIDS is a revelation, Zhao! You have to share it with the world. What herbs are needed to ward off full blown AIDS and how exactly do they work to prevent the immune system from breaking down?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

the difference between medical establishment methods and natural healing methods are often this kind:

surgery, prescription drugs, hospitalization VS. change of diet and large amount of herbs everyday

bone transplant VS. acupuncture

the same kind of prejudice that is, much less common than merely decades ago, but still wide spread in western medical establishment.

alternative medicine is not as regulated as it should be precisely because the establishment is slow to overcome its biases and recognize many practices as legitimate.

what experience do you have with "the medical establishment" (also, what do you mean - be specific - by "medical establishment"), beside as a patient? have you ever worked in any medical field? studied any kind of medicine, Western or otherwise? have you ever studied nutrition, or herbs, or acupuncture? b/c your views on medicine come off as overwhelmingly - to use one of your favorites - ignorant of everything having to do with medicine. I'm glad a dude once cured your stomach with his magic touch but that absolutely doesn't give you the authority to make sweeping proclamations on the topic.

there is no such thing as "natural healing". what the hell is unnatural healing? is synthetically produced insulin unnatural? I suppose we should tell Type I diabetics to control their insulin levels with diet & herbs. are vaccines unnatural? organ transplants? are surgery & drugs always unnatural or only when you say they are? also, is faith healing "natural"? exorcisms?

DO YOU SEE HOW BADLY THOUGHT OUT YOUR FALSE DICHOTOMY OF NATURAL HEALING VS. "ESTABLISHMENT" IS?

bias - sometimes warranted - against various alternative medicinal practices is one factor in their under-regulation but it's very inaccurate to insinuate that it's the only on. another important problem is the lack of evidence for efficacy in many cases. if you had experience - which again, I doubt - in alternative medicine you'd probably know that any field that engages the the same standards as Western medicine - peer-reviewed studies, evidence-based, etc. - has a much better chance of being accepted. a lot of alternative medicine is also very poorly self-regulated (i.e., anyone claim to be an herbalist).

i certainly am not interested in refusing western medicine or denying its value, and never have been.

no, you just encouraged people with HIV to stop taking antiretrovirals.

there is hardly ground for aggressive opposition.

you are beyond belief, really.