Live Earth

[elgato]

I'll assume you're being ironic here.

[*Sound of me sticking my fingers in my ears and going "lah-lah-lah"*]

I've just realised you meant something different to that which i intended. My irony was the disparagement of sloganeering and such with a flourish of phrase like 'cracking skulls', but i see that you were talking about what i said about the eschatology...

Why would that be ironic? Is it not the logical end of a particular train of thought and a certain set of assumptions, no matter how perverse you might think it? Its open to attack, of course

 

[swears]

I think what happens between pre-teens and young teens and even older teens is usually of the sort of experience analysts would consider well within the boundaries of "normal" curiosity and experimentation.

Yeah, of course. But if you were talking about say, a 16 year old girl with a 10 year old boy for instance, that's definitely iffy. If you haven't even started puberty then you don't have any emotional context for what's happening, even if you technically understand what sex entails.

 

[vimothy]

what am i ignoring?

Let's call it "economic value":

Can nothing have value other than economic, and as defined by a completely free market?

surely therefore the 'well if waste was worth anything ppl would be...' is meaningless?

A perfect market has perfect competition and perfect infomation. Neither are plausible or even possible.

I don't see how that invalidates my point, though. Can you expand?

Or maybe think of this: given that your regulation of the market to affect externalities naturally thrown up in the process of trade and development will necessarily throw up yet more externalities, how will you deal with them?

it can certainly be viewed as economic, although i would see that as an imposition of a logic rather than an inherent quality.

Well, I think you're being a bit pendantic here. Surely you could say that about anything which falls under the lens of economics.

but why is it not a sensible decision? at an individual level, it takes an incredibly small amount of time to recycle, given that disposal has to be achieved either way, and the potential benefits are great

It's a choice. In fact, that's all that the "slogan" was alluding to. You value your rubbish more than you value your time, other people value their time more than they value their rubbish. The value that you ascribe to your rubbish is not a value set by the meeting of supply and demand curves (an "economic value", a value tied to the interactions of the world outside, to the aggregate needs of humanity), it is a value set by opinion, either your's or someone else's.

 

[nomadologist]

What, inherently? The very concept of them?

Well, yes, and my experience of them, though I only went to school after the age of 11 for one year (graduated from two states by passing board exams by the time I was 15 and I never set foot in a high school.) I went to a local high school after I graduated to get AP credits (a sort of pre-college college course) so I wouldn't have to take as many classes in college. Anyway, the male teachers there were all incredibly flagrant perverts. There was a history teacher who was the girls' volleyball team coach who used to require that the team practice by swimming in his own home pool, he used to make them run while he followed behind them in a car watching the entire time and like grunting and sweating.

Then there was the obligatory pervy bio teacher who liked talking about sex and bodily functions a little too much, always saying inappropriately sexual things about different students bodies.

I suppose I got the impression that any grown man who voluntarily subjects himself to teenagers must have problems of some kind. Or that my prejudice to that effect was reinforced.

 

[nomadologist]

Yeah, of course. But if you were talking about say, a 16 year old girl with a 10 year old boy for instance, that's definitely iffy. If you haven't even started puberty then you don't have any emotional context for what's happening, even if you technically understand what sex entails.

Yes, that would be molestation, because a 10-year-old can't give "consent" the way we look at it.

I see a certain amount of value in guarding our notion of "consent", but I think the way we hystericize "innocence" (which ends up taking on a conversely sexual hue) and deny infantile sexuality ends up causing more problems than it solves.

 

[vimothy]

it can certainly be viewed as economic, although i would see that as an imposition of a logic rather than an inherent quality. but why is it not a sensible decision? at an individual level, it takes an incredibly small amount of time to recycle, given that disposal has to be achieved either way, and the potential benefits are great

Just thought I'd mention that in my house we all actually do recyle. We (four people) get through an enormous amount of crap and the recycling normally fills an outside toilet style building in our garden. It is a pain in the ass driving or getting a taxi to the supermarket, just as it is a pain in the ass to divide everything up and to wash out all of the beer cans and wine bottles (I live with borderline alcoholics, of course - this is England)!

Anyway, call me unconvinced then. I do it, but I don't like it, and it's mostly because it would be unfair to the rest of my housemates if I didn't contribute.

What are the potential benefits? Can you link to any evidence that backs it up? Can you prove that my rubbish is worth more than my time? And what about everone's favoutie subject: externalities? What externalities does recycling cause and how are they dealt with?

 

[Mr. Tea]

Anyway, the male teachers there were all incredibly flagrant perverts. There was a history teacher who was the girls' volleyball team coach who used to require that the team practice by swimming in his own home pool, he used to make them run while he followed behind them in a car watching the entire time and like grunting and sweating.

Then there was the obligatory pervy bio teacher who liked talking about sex and bodily functions a little too much, always saying inappropriately sexual things about different students bodies.

I suppose I got the impression that any grown man who voluntarily subjects himself to teenagers must have problems of some kind. Or that my prejudice to that effect was reinforced.

Such was our latin teachers love of classical civilization, he used his pupils in an attempt to re-create Ancient Rome in his class.

He got us to dress up in togas (using the long red velvet classroom curtains), and then "show me how you recline like a Roman" - in other words, get 13 year-olds to dress in a suspect way and then lay on a desk in front of him for his approval.

Ok, so we weren't brutally sodomised or even forced to whack him off, but it was all a bit odd, no ?

The teacher who directed our primary school pantomime used to put a lot of effort into after-school rehearsals. Sometimes just for one or two of the cast. At one of these, I (Abanazar the wicked uncle) and Widow Twankey (another boy) were encouraged to lie down on our backs, side by side, in just our PE kit, and let our hands `explore' each other's bodies without making a sound. We were told that this would teach us `proper body control'. The teacher turned the light off and watched us do it in silence for about ten minutes. My parents thought he was a wonderful teacher and refused to listen to any complaint - an emerging pattern in my school career.

I though this would be funny but it appears to have taken me to a dark place. Still, there it is.

My old school still sends me its twice-yearly magazine, and in it I recently read that Mr Sheldon is retiring. That's the Mr Sheldon who formerly gloried in the title Master of the Lower School at the risible Eton-wannabe institution I had the misfortune to attend for six years. In an interview for the magazine, Mr Sheldon said that he'd enjoyed his career, but the one thing he could never bring himself to enjoy was having to administer corporal punishment.

So that'll be why he used to make you spread your legs apart, bend over on his plush red leather chair, and wait, arse up, for long agonising minutes while he stood in the corner where he kept his quiver of canes, selecting one cane after the other, flexing it between his meaty fingers and swishing it through the air a few times to test its suitability for the melancholy duty it was about to perform. He was punishing HIMSELF more than anyone else. And his distaste would be clearly evident afterwards, in the way he'd stand there puffing and blowing, sweaty and claret-faced, agitated out of all proportion to the physical extertion involved in botty-whacking a small boy a few times. It was because he HATED it.

http://www.playgroundlaw.com/

 

[swears]

Had a rather pervy PE teacher that used to watch us in the showers (to make sure we had one-yeah right) and would hold our legs if we couldn't do handstands by ourselves. I made sure I learned how to quick! Also one other guy that got done for actually having child porn on his PC, but (hopefully) never did anything with the boys in his care.

 

[IdleRich]

Yeah, but, come on, all male high school teachers? I think you've got to have a pretty dirty mind to not be able to consider that someone might just get some enjoyment from teaching someone younger than them so that they can learn and achieve as much as possible.
When I was younger I played in football teams and played table-tennis and stuff where I was coached by grown men who somehow managed to keep their hands off me and I really enjoyed it. Nowadays when you walk through the park and see a man kicking a ball with some kids it's a sure bet that some wanker will start muttering about how he's obviously a nonce.

 

[Mr. Tea]

When I was younger I played in football teams and played table-tennis and stuff where I was coached by grown men who somehow managed to keep their hands off me and I really enjoyed it.

Yeah, right - you're just bitter they didn't fancy you.

 

[swears]

idlerich:
Yes of course, most teachers aren't child molesters, and there are a lot of good teachers out there, etc, but you have to admit that it's a profession that predatory paedos are drawn towards.

 

[nomadologist]

Swears is right--it's the same with the priesthood. Celibacy doesn't "turn" you "gay" like fundamentalist Christians claim (of course conflating "gay" with "pedophile" which is not the same). I think people who would benefit from having unsupervised access to children are drawn to professions where that is possible, especially the ones in which you enjoy a position of spiritual "authority" ...

 

[IdleRich]

Yeah, quite possibly a lot of perverts either are or want to be teachers, that by no means implies that a lot of teachers are perverts. I think that the assumption that they are is not helpful when it is already an unfairly maligned yet important profession that has trouble attracting good people.
Edit: that was a reply to swears but I guess it equally applies to Nomadologist

 

[nomadologist]

Mistersloane, this is another thing I've never understood about males: why do they think having sex with someone means you "own" them? Especially when it comes to "virgins"? I'm sorry, but most girls are not remembering the (probably terrible) first sexual encounter they had fondly, let alone feeling forever "changed" by it or forever owned by their first partner.

(think: What is a borderline alcoholic?)

 

[Mr. Tea]

You know, primary school teachers can't even hug crying kids to comfort them now, because it's 'inappropriate contact'. It's fucked up beyond belief.

 

[nomadologist]

Yeah, quite possibly a lot of perverts either are or want to be teachers, that by no means implies that a lot of teachers are perverts. I think that the assumption that they are is not helpful when it is already an unfairly maligned yet important profession that has trouble attracting good people.

Then we need to start raising men to be more respectful of females and for fuck's sake to leave teenaged girls alone.

 

[nomadologist]

You know, primary school teachers can't even hug crying kids to comfort them now, because it's 'inappropriate contact'. It's fucked up beyond belief.

In America teachers can't even defend themselves from violence--in 6th grade I watched an emotionally disturbed kid beat the shit out of his teacher and the teacher couldn't even raise his hand to push the kid off him...

 

[nomadologist]

My brother went to public school and one of the female PE teachers there had sex with several boys and even more girls before she got kicked out ...

 

[IdleRich]

Mr Sloane said:

"Certainly amoung my crowd it was ( and still is ) a real badge of honour to have broken boys in, they became 'yours' forever then. Punk girls, bless em."

Nomadologist said:

Mistersloane, this is another thing I've never understood about males: why do they think having sex with someone means you "own" them? Especially when it comes to "virgins"?

Wasn't he talking about females? I guess the rest of what you said could stand unchanged about the people in question though.

Then we need to start raising men to be more respectful of females and for fuck's sake to leave teenaged girls alone

I think that most of them do - that was my point. I'm asking why you assume that they don't?

 

[Mr. Tea]

Mistersloane, this is another thing I've never understood about males: why do they think having sex with someone means you "own" them?

Who are these "males", Nomad? I don't think like that and neither (I'm fairly sure) do any of my male friends. Sounds like you are equating ownership of a Y chromosome with a tentency to read FHM and have no interests outside of beer, football and 'pulling birds'. Yes, there are men like that, but there are plenty who aren't.