Poor rich people

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
All those things are good and necessary. People might not like capital markets, but they are useful. If you take some of your inherited millions and invest them wisely, making more money in the process, you have provided society with a social good, not because you've made money, but because you have supplied the capital necessary for production, or helped spread risk for business or whatever. If you make money, it means that you've done something well. Family, tribe and ethnicity are un-important next to this ability. Nobility loses to wealth.

It wasn't an answer - there was no question.

Really, this is silly. If the system is not meritocratic, why do skilled jobs pay more than unskilled? Why do the unemployed earn less than the employed?

Without people prepared to do public sector work (as well as the research into such issues as health), you don't even have a framework (education, health, etc etc) in which your financial markets can exist. So surely these jobs should be paid more handsomely than any CEO, seeing as the very existence of the latter's job presupposes a system in which he can gain education/keep his health?
 

vimothy

yurp
Capital markets may be useful but that does not mean that the people who invest in them automatically have the most talent does it?

No, obviously not. Some people invest and loose a lot of money. What does that represent?

Not necessarily, it might mean a pre-existing glob of income has oozed into your pockets and you've done the bare minimum with it.

It's doubtful. though. Even if you're a rich aristocrat, if you use your wealth to create more wealth, you're obviously doing something right. Businesses require capital markets. And it's certainly not particularly easy to multiply wealth (as you imply). People who make a lot of money gambling on financial markets are normally (shock horror) good at it.

It may attempt to be meritocratic but it is far from a success. That is why it is stupid to say that widening wealth gap is a good thing.

"Good answer." It's clear that capitalism is meritocratic, despite some of the views expressed on this thread. Doctors get paid more than street sweepers because their jobs are more difficult. CEOs get paid more than hot-dog sellers because their jobs are more difficult. Structural engineers get paid more than hospital porters because their jobs are more difficult.... etc...

As we all know there are loads of people who are handsomely rewarded for doing things that do not benefit society at all. The only thing they are better at doing than someone earning less is earning more money.

But WHY are they earning more money? Could it be that their jobs are...?

Someone before jokingly described one of your points of view as "if there were no rich people who would look after all the money?" and now you're actually arguing that stance.

If there were no rich people we would be living in a socialist state.
 

vimothy

yurp
It completely ignores the fact that most people could do jobs such as accountancy/banking/most financial tasks if (1) they were given the chance, without having to fit a certain artificial set of standards; (2) they could cope with the vacuous, soul-sucking tedium of it.

Well, yes. I'm not saying that (for e.g.) an accountant has some sort of inhernet accounting ability. Of course, anyone could in theory study and become an accountant, if they want to, if they can pass whatever exams are necessary and if they can handle the "soul sucking tedium". (That's what we're arguing about, right? I'm saying that capitalism is meritocratic and that these things are possible).

Your wages represent a lot more things than just 'how difficult' your job is, not least a conscious life choice on what is important and what isn't. Ask anyone who does a public sector job.

But they certainly represent the degree of specialisation necessary to fill the role and the level of demand in the economy at the time. (Plumbers, anyone)?
 

vimothy

yurp
Without people prepared to do public sector work (as well as the research into such issues as health), you don't even have a framework (education, health, etc etc) in which your financial markets can exist. So surely these jobs should be paid more handsomely than any CEO, seeing as the very existence of the latter's job presupposes a system in which he can gain education/keep his health?

What, a school teacher teaching a class of thirty ten year olds should be paid more than the head of a large multi-national responsible for thousands of jobs on a variety of different continents? Puh-lease. If it were really necessary, no one would accept teaching jobs because they'd recognise the fact that they could go and get a job as a CEO for much better money and less stress.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
It completely ignores the fact that most people could do jobs such as accountancy/banking/most financial tasks if (1) they were given the chance, without having to fit a certain artificial set of standards; (2) they could cope with the vacuous, soul-sucking tedium of it.
The thing is, if this was true then someone would have started running a banking / accountancy / whatever firm based on employing people with GCSE maths and some basic training, paying them close to minimum wage rather than however much graduates get these days, and would be absolutely tearing it up because they'd be doing essentially the same job for a lot less money. This is the sort of thing that markets are basically quite good at. Likewise, if paying the CEO's of widget making firms fifteen billion pounds a year was actually a bad idea, and you could produce more widgets for less money by employing anyone averagely competent and paying them less, then someone would do and their business would do well as a result. If companies are willing to pay fifteen billion a year to have a top CEO, it's because he's worth £15 billion a year to them.

Whether the improved efficiency of the widget making process is worth more to society than however many nurses or teachers you could pay for out of that salary is another question.

Something that's always seemed odd to me is the way that workers cooperatives are considered a purely left wing idea - it seems like something that gets everyone in the business motivated by the noble desire for profits should be pretty popular with the free marketeers too...
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Not objective - I'm a libertarian! I say that the market would give a fairer valuation than the government, based on the intersection of supply and demand.

I agree with you here. In theory. If we're talking the U.S. government, at least.

The problem is, the market as it exists already favors too many people and puts them at an unfair advantage that skews the market so that we'd never really see what "fair" means.

Whether any system of government or economics "should" be fair or ever can be is another story.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"It's doubtful. though"
Why?

But WHY are they earning more money? Could it be that their jobs are...?
So what if their jobs are difficult? If they are working actively against the good of society then should they be rewarded? The problem is the way that an ability in a specific field (earning money) unfortunately impinges on all works of life. This means that if you view things only in terms of money (which basically you do) you undervalue lots of skills.

The problem is, the market as it exists already favors too many people and puts them at an unfair advantage that skews the market so that we'd never really see what "fair" means.
Exactly.

The basic problems with what you (Vimothy) are saying are still
1. The circularity of saying that the best people have the most money and you can tell they are the best because they have the most money.
2. Related to (1), the belief that someone who is economically productive is automatically productive for society.
3. Arguing that inheritances and other advantages don't skew any meritocracy.
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
Ok, here we go with Vimothy’s questionable links on the allegedly pitiful state of Sweden. The main problem with them is that they come from very unreliable sources, are very old, and are mostly very much beside the point. Like with the two year old comment from then Social Democrat PM Göran ‘the market is an excellent servant but a terrible master’ Persson: it’s like citing some old Chirac communiqué assuming that it will reflect the policies of Sarkozy. We have a rightist bloc ruling things nowadays, you know.


Unemployement
:

It takes a few seconds to check up the American unemployment number, 5.1% in May. Not so with Sweden. Yes, there is an official number, 5.2% in May 2005. But this figure is almost compleatly worthless. The true unemployment number is in fact closer to 20%, as shown below. Sweden has several massive government programs that contain must of the unemployed, chiefly Early Retirement, Sick Leave, Labor Market Programs and Welfare. In addition, since students get a monthly stipend and loan, many unemployed continue to study when they can’t find work.​

Starting this autumn, Sweden will apply the EU standard of calculating unemployment, but for the moment, most people use figures hovering around 10 percent or so. The offical unemployment figures have dived about 2 percent since last summer (from about 6 percent to about 4 percent). The sick-leave and early retirement article is harping on that very same issue so I won’t dwell on that.


Sweden, like the rest of the West, has a lot of aging boomers, and, yes, the cure is immigration ...

But immigration is costing Sweden billions:

Det finns flera studier som visar att arbetsmarknadsläget är väsentligt mycket bättre för den andra generationens invandrare än för den första.
Dessutom ställer inte Jansson den relevanta frågan "kostnad för vem". Läsaren kan ju få intrycket av Janssons framställning att den infödda befolkningen belastas med 267 miljarder kronor per år.

Detta är naturligtvis inte fallet redan av de skäl som nämnts men också av följande skäl: för den infödda befolkningen är den relevanta frågan i stället hur stor är skillnaden mellan vad invandrarna tar i anspråk av den offentliga sektorn och vad de bidrar med i form av direkta och indirekta skatter samt socialförsäkringsavgifter.

För närvarande är läget att invandrarna årligen tar i anspråk cirka 30 miljarder kronor mer av den offentliga sektorn än vad de bidrar med i form av direkta och indirekta skatter samt socialförsäkringsavgifter. Denna skillnad finansieras av infödda, vilket således blir kostnaden för denna grupp.​

... but this link does not say what you think it does. It says that sundry studies show that second generation immigrants face considerably greater prospects on the labour market than their antecedents did (do). The author refutes previous claims of immigration supposedly being immensely costly.


Trouble in paradise
:

Sweden has a 25% real unemployment rate. What happens if or when the Swedish welfare state collapses? Isn’t it likely that this will trigger a flood of “welfare tourists” to neighboring countries such as Norway? This question hasn’t even been asked, much less debated, by a single political leader in this country. The number of rape charges in Sweden has quadrupled in a generation, parallel with Muslim immigration. Resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the group of rape suspects. Lawyer Ann Christine Hjelm found that 85 per cent of the convicted rapists in one court were born on foreign soil or of foreign parents. In a new Sociological survey, the wave of robberies the city of Malmö has witnessed during this past year is part of a “war against Swedes.” This is the explanation given by young robbers with immigrant background. “When we are in the city and robbing, we are waging a war, waging a war against the Swedes.” This argument was repeated several times. “Power for me means that Swedes shall look at me, lie down on the ground and kiss my feet.” The boys explain, laughingly, that “there is a thrilling sensation in your body when you’re robbing, you feel satisfied and happy, it feels as if you’ve succeeded, it simply feels good.” “It’s so easy to rob Swedes, so easy.” “We rob every single day, as much as we want to, whenever we want to.”​

Nice, untendentious, article there. Uh, or not. So, what have we ... A large portion of the rapists in Sweden are immigrants or the sons of immigrants (for almost all of them are male)? True. Rape is considered a problem in Sweden? Yes. Very much. Mostly because the general crime level has remained stable (on an internationally very low level) for about 20 years, while rape charges have increased. I challege you to find a link between rape and the Scandinavian Model, by the way.


The myth of the Scandanavian model
:

In 1970, Sweden’s level of prosperity was one quarter above Belgium’s. By 2003 Sweden had fallen to 14th place from 5th in the prosperity index, two places behind Belgium. According to OECD figures, Denmark was the 3rd most prosperous economy in the world in 1970, immediately behind Switzerland and the United States. In 2003, Denmark was 7th. Finland did badly as well. From 1989 to 2003, while Ireland rose from 21st to 4th place, Finland fell from 9th to 15th place.

Together with Italy, these three Scandinavian countries are the worst performing economies in the entire European Union. Rather than taking them as an example, Europe’s politicians should shun the Scandinavian recipes.

While a poorly performing economy such as Belgium’s was able to create 8% new jobs between 1981 and 2003, Sweden and Finland were unable to create any jobs at all in over two decades. Denmark did a little better because it “activated” its labour market by making it more “flexible.” It became easier for employers to fire people. For workers in the construction industry the term of notice was reduced to five days. Unemployment benefits were restricted in time, while those who had been unemployed for a long time, and young people could lose benefits if they refuse to accept jobs, including low-productivity jobs below their level of training or education. The result is that productivity growth in Denmark is lower than in Sweden and Finland.

These draconian measures reduced the unemployment rate, but did not eliminate the cause of unemployment, namely the total lack of motivation on the part of employees and employers resulting from the extremely high taxation level. Despite the painful measures, the growth of Danish productivity and prosperity has been substandard. Disappointment in Danish politicians is one of the reasons for the rise of the far right.​

We can argue until the sun goes down over whether the Scandinavian countries would place even higher if they removed their safety nets and introduced smash-and-grab capitalism à la U.S.A., but once again, this list shows that they seem to be doing pretty well as it is (all of the Scandinavian countries have very similar economic models, hence the name):

List of Countries by GDP (PPP) Per Capita

1 Luxembourg 84,507
2 Ireland 46,786
3 Norway 45,452
4 United States 45,175
5 Iceland 41,208
6 Hong Kong SAR 40,685
7 Switzerland 38,797
8 Denmark 38,072
9 Austria 37,535
10 Canada 36,821
11 United Kingdom 36,568
12 Finland 36,324
13 Netherlands 36,240
14 Sweden 35,729
15 Belgium 35,692

Swedes are angry with their politicians:

Nearly three out of four Riksdag deputies say that they have been subjected to harassment, threats or violence because of their positions. For elected representatives in local government the figure was around one in three.​

Ok, so three out of four members of the Swedish parliament have been subjected to harassment, threats or violence. That’s pretty bad, but not any worse than in most western democracies, I would guess. As my boldfacing ‘harassment’ suggests, from what I have read, it’s mostly about verbal expressions of hostility. Still not acceptable, but not enough to get me worked up. Again, where is the link to the Scandinavian Model?
 
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matt b

Indexing all opinion
"Good answer." It's clear that capitalism is meritocratic, despite some of the views expressed on this thread. Doctors get paid more than street sweepers because their jobs are more difficult. CEOs get paid more than hot-dog sellers because their jobs are more difficult. Structural engineers get paid more than hospital porters because their jobs are more difficult.... etc...

yes, drs are paid more than... but that doesn't make the system 'meritocratic' , [A system in which social positions are filled on the basis of individual merit and achievement, rather than ascribed criteria such as inherited wealth, sex or social background.]
as it doesn't take into account how individuals achieved that position in the first place.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Christ almighty, when did Ireland get so fucking wealthy?
Guess those EU subsidies have really hit the spot!
 

vimothy

yurp
Ok, here we go with Vimothy’s questionable links on the allegedly pitiful state of Sweden. The main problem with them is that they come from very unreliable sources, are very old, and are mostly very much beside the point.

"Very" old is an over-exageration. Yes, they're a couple of years old, but I'm not Swedish don't speak Swedish and can't really muster much interest in the country. I'm just drawing attention to the fact that Scandanavia/Sweden isn't quite the uncontested model of economic excellence thath you made it out to be.

We have a rightist bloc ruling things nowadays, you know.

Yes, I was coming to that. I rather think that supports my argument, no?

Starting this autumn, Sweden will apply the EU standard of calculating unemployment, but for the moment, most people use figures hovering around 10 percent or so. The offical unemployment figures have dived about 2 percent since last summer (from about 6 percent to about 4 percent). The sick-leave and early retirement article is harping on that very same issue so I won’t dwell on that.

The point of the article was that the real figure of unemployment is hidden because of government schemes (you yourself mentioned that the unemployed often study because of the stipend given to students). Sick leave and early retirement also reflect the large numbers of non-workers that must be supported in an over-generous welfare state. That's expensive, and it becomes more expensive as the population ages. This demographic effect is happening all over Europe.

Sweden, like the rest of the West, has a lot of aging boomers, and, yes, the cure is immigration ...

Agreed, in part. The cure will also have to involve reducing state spending, IMO.

... but this link does not say what you think it does. It says that sundry studies show that second generation immigrants face considerably greater prospects on the labour market than their antecedents did (do). The author refutes previous claims of immigration supposedly being immensely costly.

Well, like I say, I'm hardly fluent in Swedish. According to my translator this says:

Currently, the situation is that the immigrants annually takes in pretensions approximately 30 billions sek more of the public sector than what they contribute with in the form of direct and indirect wealths and social insurance charges.​

Nice, untendentious, article there. Uh, or not. So, what have we ... A large portion of the rapists in Sweden are immigrants or the sons of immigrants (for almost all of them are male)? True. Rape is considered a problem in Sweden? Yes. Very much. Mostly because the general crime level has remained stable (on an internationally very low level) for about 20 years, while rape charges have increased. I challege you to find a link between rape and the Scandinavian Model, by the way.

Yawn - I'm not interested in finding a link. I'm just pointing to problems: unintegrated immigrants who don't share the same Lutheran cultural values and who don't respect the social contract or Swedish cultural homogeneity. Sweden needs these immigrants to pay for its welfare state; it also needs them to not take advantage of the system. This is a European problem, as I see it. Here's Fjordman (an Iranian migrant to Sweden), again:

Although my mother got several jobs, we concluded that this really didn't improve our family's economy. During the sixteen years we have been in Sweden, my mother has in total worked less than one year. For a long time the strong work ethics in Sweden has prevented people from exploiting the system. But this seems to be changing. The work ethic has dramatically fallen in Sweden. More and more people are finding ways of living off government as an alternative to working. Between 20 and 25 percent of the working age population does not work. Between 1997 and 2003 the number of people who were on sick leave increased by more than 200,000, a dramatic number for a small country such as Sweden. What can you expect in a country where 9 out of 10 females who are living off sick leave would have less money in their pockets if they went back to their jobs?​

We can argue until the sun goes down over whether the Scandinavian countries would place even higher if they removed their safety nets and introduced smash-and-grab capitalism à la U.S.A., but once again, this list shows that they seem to be doing pretty well as it is (all of the Scandinavian countries have very similar economic models, hence the name):

List of Countries by GDP (PPP) Per Capita

12 Finland 36,324
13 Netherlands 36,240
14 Sweden 35,729
15 Belgium 35,692

Yes, and Sweden has fallen in the last thirty years. Check the charts in the Brussels Journal article - it's gotten worse, a lot worse.

Ok, so three out of four members of the Swedish parliament have been subjected to harassment, threats or violence. That’s pretty bad, but not any worse than in most western democracies, I would guess. As my boldfacing ‘harassment’ suggests, from what I have read, it’s mostly about verbal expressions of hostility. Still not acceptable, but not enough to get me worked up. Again, where is the link to the Scandinavian Model?

All I'm saying is that Swedes are obviously not totally happy with their politics.
 

vimothy

yurp
yes, drs are paid more than... but that doesn't make the system 'meritocratic' , [A system in which social positions are filled on the basis of individual merit and achievement, rather than ascribed criteria such as inherited wealth, sex or social background.]
as it doesn't take into account how individuals achieved that position in the first place.

Doctors are chosen according to merit, you loony, nothing to do with wealth, sex or social background - they pass exams and move up the ranks.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Doctors are chosen according to merit, you loony, nothing to do with wealth, sex or social background - they pass exams and move up the ranks."
But their social background may determine how likely they are to go in to it and if they are able to support themselves through years of study and how likely they are to pass those exams - as you well know. I see no point in you dogmatically arguing otherwise. If you weren't so inflexible and blind when you are clearly wrong then maybe you would have more success in persuading people on the occasions when you are right about something.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Doctors are chosen according to merit, you loony, nothing to do with wealth, sex or social background - they pass exams and move up the ranks.

Doctors are overwhelmingly from priviledged backgrounds and only a loony would ignore that.

In fact it is only slightly less loony to argue that access to the professions is because of genetic factors, what with class mobility going down the toilet.
 

vimothy

yurp

How? It's not as easy as you make out to earn money. Simply having cash is not enough.

So what if their jobs are difficult? If they are working actively against the good of society then should they be rewarded?

What does this mean, "working against the good of society"? Who decides who's doing it? That's just silliness. If there's a demand for a good or service, anyone supplying it is working for the good of society. You just want to make demands.

The problem is the way that an ability in a specific field (earning money) unfortunately impinges on all works of life. This means that if you view things only in terms of money (which basically you do) you undervalue lots of skills.

No it obviously doesn't. People who earn large wages (CEOs, for e.g.) obviously have skills other than just "earning money" and it is precisely those skills which are rewarded financially. Even if you don't like the idea of multinaltionals (or whatever), you should still be able to respect the fact that the people at the top get paid a lot of money because they work hard.

The basic problems with what you (Vimothy) are saying are still
1. The circularity of saying that the best people have the most money and you can tell they are the best because they have the most money.

This shouldn't be difficult. ("best" relating strictly to the economic reality of the time. You might be brillaint at writing sensitive romantic verse, or making model warplanes; great, but it's not important).

2. Related to (1), the belief that someone who is economically productive is automatically productive for society.

You're just blinded by leftist assumptions about the market. If no one ("society") wants a good or service, no one will buy it.

3. Arguing that inheritances and other advantages don't skew any meritocracy.

I haven't argued that! Does money give you an advantage? Yes, but it doesn't matter unless you're a ressentiment filled class warrior. You can still succeed if you work hard, because the system is meritocratic.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Doctors are overwhelmingly from priviledged backgrounds and only a loony would ignore that.

In my experience, most medical students, and a fair number of qualified doctors, are of south Asian origin.
They're probably middle-class Asians, but they're certainly not the rich white people the phrase 'privileged' is usually taken to imply.
 

vimothy

yurp
But their social background may determine how likely they are to go in to it and if they are able to support themselves through years of study and how likely they are to pass those exams - as you well know.

But they pass or fail the course according to whether they pass or fail the exams, not according to the size of Daddy's bank balance. Anything else (such as weighting the exams to favour lower income students) would not be meritocratic.

I see no point in you dogmatically arguing otherwise. If you weren't so inflexible and blind when you are clearly wrong then maybe you would have more success in persuading people on the occasions when you are right about something.

That's right, because a system is only meritocratic when everyone does as well as everyone else.

Doctors are overwhelmingly from priviledged backgrounds and only a loony would ignore that.

That doesn't matter, they're still chosen according to academic success, not according to their sex or wealth. Anyone suggesting otherwise is clearly not familiar with how difficult it is to study Medicine and pass.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
In my experience, most medical students, and a fair number of qualified doctors, are of south Asian origin.
They're probably middle-class Asians, but they're certainly not the rich white people the phrase 'privileged' is usually taken to imply.

I'm happy to revise my previous quote to "middle and upper class" if that helps.


What does this mean, "working against the good of society"? Who decides who's doing it? That's just silliness. If there's a demand for a good or service, anyone supplying it is working for the good of society. You just want to make demands.

There seems to be a significant demand for crack cocaine and guns round my way, but it is clear to me that the people supplying them are not working for the good of society. Now, obviously that is a value judgement on my part, but I would rather that people made these judgements and discussed them, than blankly dismissed them and left it all up to the great god of economics.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"It's not as easy as you make out to earn money. Simply having cash is not enough"
If you inherit a million pounds and pay it in to a bank at five percent interest rate you will earn fifty-thousand pounds a year. By your definition making you approximately twice as productive as a nurse or teacher or whatever. I would say that paying some inherited money in to a bank is pretty easy.

"People who earn large wages (CEOs, for e.g.) obviously have skills other than just "earning money"
Not necessarily. Some do but some definitely don't.

"If there's a demand for a good or service, anyone supplying it is working for the good of society."
Wrong wrong wrong. If a mad billionaire decides he wants to bomb London and offers money to people who will help him it is obvious that there is demand but it is not for the good of society.
The circularity and limitation of your arguments prevents you from seeing outside a narrow and self-validating view of "good".

"best" relating strictly to the economic reality of the time.
This definition limits you to talking about money.

"You might be brillaint at writing sensitive romantic verse, or making model warplanes; great, but it's not important"
Not to you.
 
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