bloody miserable

[woops]

I know I will regret posting this but here goes

With all respect to a previous poster, it is missing the point to ask what is bothering You (for example) because it misses the point. It could be the vampiristic nihilism of Late Capital, or it could be missing a bus; everything is fucked anyway, so what's the difference?

You can medicate in various ways but if the effect is to make you amenable to the kind of existence you were trying to avoid to the point where you got so miserable you had to medicate then what have you really gained? That is what I take Luka to mean when he mentions half-manhood.

There is not a lot to be said on the topic, certainly not on the internet, because every case is about as personal as it gets and I don't propose any answers or mean to criticise anyone either; those are the facts as I see them.

 

[you]

Just to add. If I had practical issues about things, eg. chemical modulation, exercise, the short days....Then discussing similar experiences and solutions could be useful. Grizzle was being kind to offer advice and listen...however subjective and anecdotal... And being ready to listen or talk about the topic is important for resisting the standardising marketisation of wellbeing. Even if it occurs on a forum.

So basically, A forum is not a good solution, but it should be utilised when it can for bouncing ideas and experiences along with the best real life solutions. So, no absolutes, no easy answers.

 

[baboon2004]

My 2 pence:

I think that drugs have their place, which is (to simplify) to get people in a place where their problems are more easily dealable with. In principle there would be enough subsequent help in terms of counsellors/therapists/whatever to help with that process of dealing, but there just isn't, because priority-wise people's well-being takes a distant second place to wealth accumulation/addiction. I'm not the greatest fan of CBT, but I think griftert's assessment is OTM - it can be used as another tool as long as it's not seen as a panacea.

As Woops says, the whole issue can't be separated from the vampiristic nihililsm of Late Capital (good phrase)- drugs and CBT are favoured because they are inexpensive/allow workers to get back to work asap and resume ridiculous levels of stress without complaining, but the problems that they are prescribed for are themselves partially created by the unnatural nature of the situation in which people find themselves due to work/money/housing worries. i.e. a rational response to this society is one which is seen from within this society as 'mad' - analogous to schizophrenia/bipolar etc being seen as an understandable coping mechanism for/against mad families

 

[griftert]

With all respect to a previous poster, it is missing the point to ask what is bothering You (for example) because it misses the point. It could be the vampiristic nihilism of Late Capital, or it could be missing a bus; everything is fucked anyway, so what's the difference?

You can medicate in various ways but if the effect is to make you amenable to the kind of existence you were trying to avoid to the point where you got so miserable you had to medicate then what have you really gained? That is what I take Luka to mean when he mentions half-manhood.

There is not a lot to be said on the topic, certainly not on the internet, because every case is about as personal as it gets and I don't propose any answers or mean to criticise anyone either; those are the facts as I see them.

Yeah actually you're right - best not to talk about things if you're feeling shit - better just to keep your mouth shut and hope the problem goes away of its own accord. Of course, you could read something about depression but why bother? Everyone's case is different, so therefore no general claims can be made about it at all.

 

[Corpsey]

I'm definitely not saying antidepressants will work for everybody. I'm on a fairly low dose (20mg a day) and I don't really notice any negative effects whatsoever in my day to day life - which is to say, I don't feel like I'm divorced from reality or my personality has been reduced or deadened or whatever. I do feel a positive effect, though it isn't the sort of boost you'd get from MDMA e.g., its more that at a certain point I just found it a lot easier to let go of stuff that was depressing me. I still get depressed about things, its just helped regulate that side of my psychology... I didn't think it would have any effect on me really, and when I was on 10mg a day there was NO effect as far as I could tell. But 20mg definitely changed something. I sometimes wonder if 30mg would be even better but I don't want to feel drugged.

Bearing in mind that I only got put on Citalopram after well over a year of therapy, and was well on the way to being this ''happy'' before I started taking it.

Antidepressants are definitely over-prescribed and there is that profit-driven aspect to it but I think they can really help people in some cases. Also for those with serious mental issues (depression and otherwise), they can be essential. My uncle stopped taking his antidepressants at a certain point and he ended up killing himself. I think my Auntie (who was a medical professional) believes that if he hadn't stopped taking them he would possibly be still around today.

ANYWAYS - although Citalopram has helped a lot other things like getting a full time job (however dull), doing a lot of exercise, reading books and watching films and listening to and creating music have all helped a lot and above all else other people.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0381l2v

This is an interesting interview (for Desert Island Discs) with the psychologist Daniel Kahneman, he touches on some of these issues. His main advice is to set yourself realistic goals in life, because the goals people set for themselves have a huge effect on their 'life satisfaction' (which Kahneman considers exists alongside happiness in the moment). He also says that people tend to be happier in their middle-late age, which seems almost counter-intuitive for a young buck like me and in our youth worshipping culture but you know I feel like this could be true for someone like me at least. The older I get the more comfortable I feel with doing things that I've always liked but have felt like (and have probably BEEN, to be fair) diversions from anxiety in my teens/twenties.

oh btw there's a funny bit of The Archers at the beginning of that clip, very saucy.

 

[mistersloane]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0381l2v

This is an interesting interview (for Desert Island Discs) with the psychologist Daniel Kahneman, he touches on some of these issues. His main advice is to set yourself realistic goals in life, because the goals people set for themselves have a huge effect on their 'life satisfaction' (which Kahneman considers exists alongside happiness in the moment). He also says that people tend to be happier in their middle-late age, which seems almost counter-intuitive for a young buck like me and in our youth worshipping culture but you know I feel like this could be true for someone like me at least. The older I get the more comfortable I feel with doing things that I've always liked but have felt like (and have probably BEEN, to be fair) diversions from anxiety in my teens/twenties.

I don't want to put a downer on anyone - more than oneselves do already - and don't want to belittle anyone, but I haven't found that I get happier in middle age, I've just found that it hurts less, and one is colder about the outcomes. Suicide, failure and perpetual disappointment become less of the drama that they were in (ones) teens and twenties, and almost an inevitability. That makes it easier, but resignation isn't necessarily the same as happiness. And I say this as someone who's mainly Ok most of the time now, and who has a good life, but I'm all too aware of what it means.

 

[baboon2004]

This is an interesting interview (for Desert Island Discs) with the psychologist Daniel Kahneman, he touches on some of these issues. His main advice is to set yourself realistic goals in life, because the goals people set for themselves have a huge effect on their 'life satisfaction' (which Kahneman considers exists alongside happiness in the moment).

I'll listen to the interview, thanks for that. In relation to realistic goals, obv I haven't yet listened to how Kahneman embellishes that, but I'd say it might almost be possible to be more specific and relate it explicitly to one's relationships with other people, i.e. not expecting things from other people that you won't get. And that's so difficult to achieve emotionally, even if you know it backwards intellectually.

Which is to say, I think you're totally OTM saying that "above all else other people" and your relations with them affect one's mental health.

 

[baboon2004]

I don't want to put a downer on anyone - more than oneselves do already - and don't want to belittle anyone, but I haven't found that I get happier in middle age, I've just found that it hurts less, and one is colder about the outcomes. Suicide, failure and perpetual disappointment become less of the drama that they were in (ones) teens and twenties, and almost an inevitability. That makes it easier, but resignation isn't necessarily the same as happiness. And I say this as someone who's mainly Ok most of the time now, and who has a good life, but I'm all too aware of what it means.

I guess you could also see it as learning to deal with disappointment etc in new, better, ways? Dunno if that fits.

 

[Mr. Tea]

It strikes me there's a popular, romantic view of depression which goes something like: the world is basically a living hell, familial and amatory relationships are usually dysfunctional and traumatic, paid employment is slavery and entertainment and material possessions are, at best, temporary anodynes provided by our capitalist masters to help us bear this slavery from day to day, if not simply tools of oppression in themselves. And that therefore, it is almost a duty to be sad, because the world is sad, and attempting to alleviate this sadness through chemicals or therapy is some combination of cowardice, dishonesty and collaboration.

Now I don't think anyone here is going quite this far but there seem to be a few heading in that direction. I can't deny that it has a certain poetic appeal but it seems to be a pretty sure way of heading irreversibly down the spiral if you actually take it as your life philosophy or whatever. It also seems to ignore the fact that there are many and various causes of depression, and that while Weltschmerz and depressing stories on the news aren't going to go away, it's also possible to be depressed mainly because of tangible features of your own life - and as Corpsey and others have said, taking medication temporarily (even if 'temporarily' means five years) can help lift you out of the worst of it to the point where you have the energy and general wherewithal to make some concrete changes to your life that helps you feel genuinely better in the long run, whether it's getting a (better) job, starting a relationship, ending a bad relationship, or whatever it may be.

I dunno, I could be talking out of my arse here, I don't think I've ever been depressed. I say this because I know people who definitely have been, and I've seen what it can reduce people to in terms of what they're capable of on a day-to-day basis. My girlfriend's in a bit of a funny place at the moment but again, this has some quite readily identifiable causes, namely work stress and family illness. I feel generally OK but badly need to rethink what I want to do for a living for the next thirty-odd years.

 

[baboon2004]

Sorry to hear your girlfriend's going through a rough patch. The combination of work stress and family illness sounds a very stressful one.

As to the other stuff, it's certainly possible to be depressed due to tangible features of one's own life (and many people's familial relationships are certainly in there as a cause of considerable trauma, something that good therapy is perfectly designed to begin to remedy - problem is not enough good therapists blah blah), just that there are also structural causes which are often ignored in many narratives, and capitalism is a system that lends itself to the creation of mental illness by privileging profit over quality of life/people or the basic security that is pretty much a prerequisite for happiness (and it is becoming ever more blatant in this). Agree totally re meds/therapy.

 

[Local Authority]

its a hypochondriacs dream

 

[baboon2004]

What is?

 

[craner]

How old are you Mr Tea?

At the very moment in my life when I made a desperare and catastrophic lunge at a career-change, I had Tony Hancock swirling around in my head:

Oh, I'll be a missionary, I think. Help the under-privileged people of the world. I hear it pays quite well. Or shall I just do away with myself?

 

[Mr. Tea]

Sorry to hear your girlfriend's going through a rough patch. The combination of work stress and family illness sounds a very stressful one.

Yeah, it's crappy. She works as a development officer (fundraiser, loosely) at one of the colleges here, which she enjoys in principle although her boss is just giving her far, far too much for one person - even one very clever and hard-working person - to do. And she often has to go to these gala dinner things for donors and potential donors, which in themselves aren't too bad (eat and drink well for free, talk to (sometimes) interesting people) but it's a pain when they eat into her personal time - this was the reason she wasn't with me in London last Friday night, for instance. And it would still be semi-bearable were it not for the other stuff going on in the background. And sometimes foreground.

Ollie C, I think I'm a year or so younger than you.

 

[woops]

just to be clear

I was not suggesting in my earlier post in this thread that anyone should not medicate or do anything else that seems helpful. i was trying to elaborate a point of view and er, stick my oar in. i did not mean to be dismissive.

 

[baboon2004]

Yeah, it's crappy. She works as a development officer (fundraiser, loosely) at one of the colleges here, which she enjoys in principle although her boss is just giving her far, far too much for one person - even one very clever and hard-working person - to do. And she often has to go to these gala dinner things for donors and potential donors, which in themselves aren't too bad (eat and drink well for free, talk to (sometimes) interesting people) but it's a pain when they eat into her personal time - this was the reason she wasn't with me in London last Friday night, for instance. And it would still be semi-bearable were it not for the other stuff going on in the background. And sometimes foreground.

Ollie C, I think I'm a year or so younger than you.

Argh, sounds rubbish - can't legislate for (or rather, against) bosses like that, unfortunately.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I was not suggesting in my earlier post in this thread that anyone should not medicate or do anything else that seems helpful. i was trying to elaborate a point of view and er, stick my oar in. i did not mean to be dismissive.

Yeah 'scool bro.

 

[oblioblioblio]

I started on Citalopram 20mg a few days ago.

Always been a sensitive individual and circumstances over the last few years have not been in my favour... coming face to face with the worst behaviour that humans are capable of.

Tried to offset it thru flinging myself into creative work but the creative industry doesn't really lend itself towards supporting truthful work, quite often just a place for people to (un)safely get off their heads, or just offer a background to a pre-existing social structure, or just dictated by power and money. Did a record label, events, everything to make it happen but didn't play the right games and didn't want to. Always got good feedback from people that I trust, some of which are people whose work I really admire, but generally just played to empty rooms and got downloads from like 10 people.

Made it through alive I guess and the truthful method means that I have built interactions on something genuine, which is something to take into the future.

Got a couple of projects to finish off but through necessity I can only do "fun" projects from now on and not approach music professionally any more. The contrarion in me is looking forward to turning down paid work (which I never ever got in 10 years of trying my damnedest to) now that I have quit.

Going to focus on the engineering side from now on... always been into electronics and have done a lot of DIY work for my music projects and making that a reality now.

 

[you]

Good to hear you have a focus now. Pretty much a testament to the anti-humanist protocol of industry - regardless of if it comes in jeans and apple or pinstripe and windows.

Obvious why I'd ask this question but does anyone have experience of volatility in regards to sleep/mood/energy? I've always been change-y but past year I've noticed swings that affect my sparse commitments.

 

[oblioblioblio]

yeah it's grim... hard to talk about it as well, cos you end up inadvertently slagging off mates who are successful, or alienating people still hopeful of success. Just makes you feel totally alone, and the credit from people who know the score (like, Zeke Clough is really into my work, had Move D come up to me in a club and say how much he liked one of my live sets) just kind of makes it worse, cos it feeds the arrogant side where you know what you've done is good, but doesn't make you feel any better about the indifference from 99.9%. And arrogance is just hide and seek for self hate.

Meh.