bloody miserable

[baboon2004]

Got to say I swing strongly the other way - Mr Tea, if your buddy can hook up with a psychologist trained in cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) I reckon he will see much faster results than chatting with a psycho-therapist.

I guess heaps of it is about what's actually happening and what is effective in particular cases. Counsellors etc. can be immensely useful for venting and working through a dilemma, but I think for someone who is locked into some fucked up bodily / behavioural routines it can be fantastic to side-step all the talk about feelings and self-reflection (in the sense of mulling over past events, etc. - all the broadly Freudian stuff, even if we're supposed to scoff at him) and approach it from the other end.

Mr Tea, if you like science, you have to side with CBT. Haha, sorry, I'm stirring.

Very sceptical about CBT - it fits well with the idea that there's some quick fix solution to everything. I've done it, and I thought it ultimately bullshit. If all that's wrong with you is some behavioural 'abnormality', sure, it's useful. But I think it's very rare that there isn't some cause behind the depression. Mostly, imo, CBT is a plaster over a gaping wound - negative thoguht patterns rarely happen without reason.

 

[baboon2004]

In my experience taking "formal measures" can be very helpful. When you're depressed you can't get yourself out of the hole, self-examination makes you feel like a miserable shit wallowing in self-pity, just worthless. But seeing your feelings as 'depression' offers the possibility for a solution. Just the possibility that something can be done, that there are people who take the problem seriously and have methods to cure it can be a relief.

100 % on the money.

 

[michael]

Very sceptical about CBT - it fits well with the idea that there's some quick fix solution to everything. I've done it, and I thought it ultimately bullshit. If all that's wrong with you is some behavioural 'abnormality', sure, it's useful. But I think it's very rare that there isn't some cause behind the depression. Mostly, imo, CBT is a plaster over a gaping wound - negative thoguht patterns rarely happen without reason.

I reckon our memories are so unreliable that trying to identify some cause for a pattern of thought or feeling (beyond screamingly obvious trauma) will not be nearly as helpful as anything that attempts to tackle patterns as they occur now.

I was going to say that CBT has helped my friends / fam who have given it a crack much more than seeing a psycho-therapist. But that's probably an example of me falling for exactly the kind of cognitive bias I'm saying to work around - I'm sifting through the past evidence for the bits that match the conclusion I've already reached.

Dunninger's comment "Self-examination makes you feel like a miserable shit wallowing in self-pity, just worthless" describes my worst experiences of counselling. (Worst, I'd stress - of course things can be much better than that)

Anyway, assuming we've both got what we want to say out in the open, I'll shut up now because I don't feel like having an internet argument is going to be of much benefit to the thrust of this thread.

 

[Dunninger]

I reckon our memories are so unreliable that trying to identify some cause for a pattern of thought or feeling (beyond screamingly obvious trauma) will not be nearly as helpful as anything that attempts to tackle patterns as they occur now.

I think what works better depends a lot on what the problem is.

Dunninger's comment "Self-examination makes you feel like a miserable shit wallowing in self-pity, just worthless" describes my worst experiences of counselling. (Worst, I'd stress - of course things can be much better than that)

What's the difference between a counselling and therapy (is there one)? I'm not familiar with the english health system. What I meant was that when you're depressed and think a lot about yourself just on your own it leads to feeling bad. You try to find an explanation why you are so miserable and the only conclusion is: because you're rubbish. Of course therapy includes a lot of self-examination, but you have the therapist as a guide who can show you the trapdoors you fall in. My experience is that after a therapy session although it touched painful subjects I feel really good and with a sense of hope.

 

[baboon2004]

True, wasn't angling for an argument. Yeah, I was a bit disparaging about CBT and not very lucid - it can certainly help certain people with certain problems.

My issue with CBT (in a very short version) is that it identifies the right problem as it were (patterns of thinking which are unhelpful/self-destructive etc), but attempts to retrain the mind in a 'logical' fashion not to do this. Problem is that these patterns are illogical (or at least not logical in the same sense), and that the person can often only 'feel' that they're self-destructive by kind of reliving them, and not by merely intellectually knowing they're self-destructive (which most depressed people know anyways).

So, to me, therapy's aim is to provide an arena in which this reliving is possible, and not to find a 'reason' as such, when, as you rightly imply, there may be no discernible reason. Some therapists are rubbish though, which is a problem.

I reckon our memories are so unreliable that trying to identify some cause for a pattern of thought or feeling (beyond screamingly obvious trauma) will not be nearly as helpful as anything that attempts to tackle patterns as they occur now.

I was going to say that CBT has helped my friends / fam who have given it a crack much more than seeing a psycho-therapist. But that's probably an example of me falling for exactly the kind of cognitive bias I'm saying to work around - I'm sifting through the past evidence for the bits that match the conclusion I've already reached.

Dunninger's comment "Self-examination makes you feel like a miserable shit wallowing in self-pity, just worthless" describes my worst experiences of counselling. (Worst, I'd stress - of course things can be much better than that)

Anyway, assuming we've both got what we want to say out in the open, I'll shut up now because I don't feel like having an internet argument is going to be of much benefit to the thrust of this thread.

Anyway Tea, hope you worked out a plan of action for helping our your mate.

 

[grizzleb]

Really feeling the worst I have in years. Brutally lonely and all I think about is how I'm shit, my life is shit and it will always be so, and I don't deserve anything beyond the barrage of abuse I give myself all day every day...

 

[paolo]

You might want to get yourself on antidepressants. They sorted me out and I'd recommend them for just about anyone who's depressed. Then again, if the loneliness is causing the depression pills won't sort that out. I'm not great at making friends so not sure what to advise...

Loneliness and depression can be a grim positive feedback cycle

 

[Tentative Andy]

^What the man paul said.
IIRC from previous posts on here you're skeptical about antidepressants (sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth) and that's understandable, I used to be to - but since starting on them they really have changed my life for the better.
And yeah, having people around you that you trust can help drag you out of a hole, doesn't have to be some huge group of mad friends or anything, just a few people that you can rely on.

 

[mistersloane]

Really feeling the worst I have in years. Brutally lonely and all I think about is how I'm shit, my life is shit and it will always be so, and I don't deserve anything beyond the barrage of abuse I give myself all day every day...

It's about trying to tune out that voice though, isn't it, ultimately. The "I'm shit and..." voice. I always find/found - I'm much less depressed nowadays than I used to be - is treating that voice as a demon that I really didn't like helped alot. Y'know, trying to shut that one out and replace it with something/a voice that I dislike less. It's hard to be positive when things are black, so the dislike less thing is easier I find than trying to be 'positive' which is just laughable when one's in that sort of frame of mind.

I get up every morning and try and do something - really, anything - that I can hold on to so I can think "well, at least I did that today and that was OK", even if I fuck up for the rest of the day and don't manage to, y'know, do achievements or stuff like that. It's small steps.

Sorry you're feeling bad, anyway.

 

[Corpsey]

Think I'll be getting prescribed antidepressants tomorrow.

I suppose I shouldn't really be getting on booze and MD while on these, eh?

 

[Dr Awesome]

MDMA and depression form a dangerous cycle. I got sucked into that hole once... very nearly didn't manage to crawl my way out.
With out sounding over dramatic, the only way I could describe it now would be a giant gaping maw in my life.

Srsly don't go anywhere near it while you're on anti depressants, and for the love of god don't start taking MD to make your self feel normal.

Bonus: This thread makes for some hilarious reading if one assumes CBT stand for "Cock and Ball Torture" rather than "Cognitive Behaviour Therapy".

 

[baboon2004]

Really feeling the worst I have in years. Brutally lonely and all I think about is how I'm shit, my life is shit and it will always be so, and I don't deserve anything beyond the barrage of abuse I give myself all day every day...

Sorry to hear that man. Rest assured, it will get better, which is the biggest tonic of all I think. I've been in states of mind where I don't think it will get better, and it always does. Really.

Read up a bit on the superego if you don't mind intellectualising it a bit. Mistersloane is on the money about creating a new superego voice for yourself - v v difficult of course, but totally worth the investment.

I recommend anit-depressants, but find out about them before you go to the doctor (don't trust all doctors, definitely - some are brilliant,some are shite, obv), because some are geared more towards both anxiety and depression, which helps some people a lot more. i recommend therapy even more, but it's expensive. self-therapy in the form of buying a few good books can really help - and something like yoga, so i'm told, which allows you a space free of the self-criticism, can be brilliant. More generally, make sure you do some exercise on a daily.

 

[baboon2004]

MDMA and depression form a dangerous cycle. I got sucked into that hole once... very nearly didn't manage to crawl my way out.
With out sounding over dramatic, the only way I could describe it now would be a giant gaping maw in my life.

Srsly don't go anywhere near it while you're on anti depressants, and for the love of god don't start taking MD to make your self feel normal.

Bonus: This thread makes for some hilarious reading if one assumes CBT stand for "Cock and Ball Torture" rather than "Cognitive Behaviour Therapy".

yeah, stay away from MD, esp if you'r elikely to use it to self-medicate. In my experience, it just reverts to speed when you're taking anti-depressants anyway.

as to alcohol, i've drunk a lot while on anti-depressants. it's a personal thing, but i've found it fine as long as i have some days off. it's not ideal, but what are you gonna do in a society the social life of which is built on alcohol?

and if you smoke weed, quit today. seriously.

oh, i thought CBT did stand for...oh.

 

[grizzleb]

Thanks for the thoughts guys... I feel a bit better this morning predictably - that's how it goes though, the sense of malaise builds up for a while until you realise 'fucking hell I am well depressed'.

I've thought about antidepressants, my big brother said they fucked him up for years (after a honeymoon period). Brain shivers/shocks sounds like about the worst thing ever.

Yeah I have been smoking weed, but I've quit a couple weeks or so ago for good, I know that really doesn't help with 'the voice'. Weed has to be the worst drug. It lulls you in and takes you over, and if you stop smoking for a bit and get maybe a bit more outgoing, the first thing you think of when you take a toke is 'what the fuck are you doing, you're not allowed to go out; stay in and feel like shit'. It's well insidious.

It does get better, but I guess the problem I have is that it seems I'll never be able to get over my crippling 'love shyness' in wikipedia psychology terminology. I've never had any relationship with the fairer sex and it's a permanent fixture in my life, one that I can't seem to shake. I know nothing is a panacea but I feel so excluded from one of the most basic things we have as humans and I don't know how to get over it.

What books would you recommend, baboon? I'd like to have a think about how to improve some of these problems. Got told I was singled out for praise in my uni department for the work I've been doing and it just made me feel terrible (?). Even 'good stuff' is starting to get tainted by my all-encompassing gloom now.

I wouldn't normally post up all this personal shit but I couldn't really think of anywhere else to get some non judgemental advice. Don't think I could explain anything like this to a doctor.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Srsly don't go anywhere near it while you're on anti depressants, and for the love of god don't start taking MD to make your self feel normal.

Yep, this happened to an ex of mine. It was bad enough when it was 'just' pills, but then mephedrone came along... Keep it for the fun tiemz, kids. Also, a lot of antidepressants are MAOIs and if you take those with stims like ecstasy you can get serotonin syndrome, which is at best horrible and at worst fatal.

Really sorry to hear that a couple of our best regulars are feeling shitty at the moment. One ray of light I can cast in this thread is that at least my depressed housemate seems to be a lot better at the moment - whether that's got anything to do with anything I've said or done I don't know, I think he's probably just of one of those people who's going to spend his life going through cycles of depression. I'm glad for him that he's out of it for now, I hope it lasts but we'll just have to see.

Edit: glad to hear you've quit da chronic, grizzleb, I really wish you all the best and hope you find a way through this.

 

[Tentative Andy]

^My experience with substances and antidepressants is that it's best to stay off everything for the first 2 - 4 weeks while your body is still adjusting to the ADs. After that you should be fine, within reason - bear in mind that I just drink a bit and smoke weed once in a blue moon. The main reason I don't take MDMA is precisely to avoid those dramatic up/down cycles that Dr A & Tea were describing.

 

[grizzleb]

I agree with that about mdma, I think it affects your brain chemistry too much and if you're the type of person who needs anti-depressants then the problems associated with that can only be greater. The mdma may even be playing a part if you're taking it regularly enough. I used to know people who would take it every weekend, I could only go 2 weekends in a row before it left me feeling rough as old boots and a bit mental. Wonder what someone who has been doing it every weekend for years must feel like.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Yeah, it doesn't have the sinister reputation of coke or speed because it's not 'classically' addictive, but it can definitely fuck you up if you don't treat it with a certain amount of respect (same as weed, of course).

 

[Dunninger]

Don't think I could explain anything like this to a doctor.

Oh, you can, and I'd encourage you to do so. Depression is such a common thing, if you seek out professional help he will be able to understand what you're talking about. If you're really depressed (and it sounds like you are) it's very unlikely that you'll find out the source of "the voice" and how it works by yourself. My personal experience with therapy is that I discovered things about me that cause me pain and loss of self-worth that I would have never even dreamed about.

 

[luka]

ive never been depressed and its very sad and slightly shocking that so many of you are. i did hav a voice i didn't like though so i murdered it. i just thought i would say that to promise you it is possible to murder that voice. for me it was writing that helped me to do it becasue it externialises the opponenets and the battlefield.