Worth dying for

[nomadologist]

OMFG!!!



Would love to but these babies won't rape themselves, you know.

You make me sick, you fucking piece of human trash. You know NOTHING, NOTHING about 90% of what goes on in America, ESPECIALLY when it comes to litigation and the actual ins-and-outs of our legal system.

How ridiculous, to bring up the brutal murder of a gay man and the battle over hate crime legislation to show Vimothy that as a rabid conservative, he's in good company.

Fucking twat.

 

[swears]

Two homophobes dragged Matthew Shepard's body--alive--around chained to the back of a truck until he slowly bled to death and lost enough skin and tissue to cause massive hemorrhaging and internal bleeding. And conservatives didn't want to add HATE CRIME charges to their sentences!!

Do you really think the lunatics who commit these kind of acts are really going to be deterred by a hate crime law, when the prospect of being charged with murder doesn't even seem to phase them?

 

[nomadologist]

In African countries where AIDS is at its worst pandemic levels, there are men who rape babies because, their logic goes "you can't get AIDS from a virgin."

A really wonderful thing to make a joke about, you fucking completely scumbag.

 

[nomadologist]

Two homophobes dragged Matthew Shepard's body--alive--around chained to the back of a truck until he slowly bled to death and lost enough skin and tissue to cause massive hemorrhaging and internal bleeding. And conservatives didn't want to add HATE CRIME charges to their sentences!!

Do you really think the lunatics who commit these kind of acts are really going to be deterred by a hate crime law, when the prospect of being charged with murder doesn't even seem to phase them?

It's not about deterring them, it's about making sure they never get out on bail by compounding their sentences and getting life without parole.

 

[vimothy]

Funny how people like you and Vim are supremely concerned about some girl who wrote some random poetry (she doesn't know *that* much about making bombs, ffs) on her facebook page, yet you make fun of the idea that the FBI might be searching the internet for buzzwords like "terrorism" and etc. But you're the SAME PEOPLE who are anti-hate crime legislation.

I don't remember saying anything about hate crime legislation. As usual, nomadologist, you are just making things up because you're unable to hold your own in an argument and unable to properly understand what other people have written.

You make me sick, you fucking piece of human trash. You know NOTHING, NOTHING about 90% of what goes on in America, ESPECIALLY when it comes to litigation and the actual ins-and-outs of our legal system.

It may suprise you to learn the context of this exchange between Gavin, Mr Tea and myself. We were actually taking about a case in the UK, not America, which refers to UK law and the UK legal system, not the American legal system, and so my ignorance of the American legal system is really neither here nor there.

How ridiculous, to bring up the brutal murder of a gay man and the battle over hate crime legislation to show Vimothy that as a rabid conservative, he's in good company.

Well, you brought up the murder, not me, and yes, it was in bad taste, and all to make some silly, partisan and irrelevant point about hate crime legislation.

Fucking twat.

Yes, but we can't all be extremely rude, terminally stupid, spoilt, opiated brats like you.

 

[Mr. Tea]

What does any of this have to do with the *American* political spectrum, or the FBI, or fucking Fox News? Aside from the fact that, being American, they're things YOU can relate to? The woman is British and was arrested in Britain under British law. I was discussing the case with Gavin and Noel before you stuck your oar in with a completely uncalled-for (and, I hasted to add, entirely untrue) accusation that "people like me" - who form a well-define and identifiable community within the population, apparently - would no doubt be defending freedom of speech with our very lives if the person on trial were a Christian fundamentalist or white supremacist. Which is both offensive and totally wrong. And for the LAST TIME, she was NOT arrested for 'writing poetry' (why do I get the impression I'm addressing a brick wall, here?), and I don't give a toss about whatever right-wing people you may have met. And you give yourself the right to dictate to me what I think about hate-crime legislation (as it happens, I am in favour of it) and start talking about some totally irrelevant crime in America as if it's meant to reflect in any way what I think.

 

[nomadologist]

I don't care if you didn't say anything about hate crime legislation--I DID. I brought it up to point out yet another flagrant hypocrisy among the pro-war right: the application of hate crime legislation to muslims and the refusal to apply it to homophobia and other hate-related incidents.

I know that case was happening in the U.K. I was talking about the fact that similar things happen in the U.S. all the time, and pointing out how wrong damaging it is to limit free speech to only those speech acts the government likes

Hate crime legislation, like war crimes legislation, is not at all irrelevant to free speech, but keep dreaming Vimothy.

Oh yeah, and make another reference to me being "opiated" as if I am, one, and as if that's at all relevant, two.

Spoiled? Oh snap.

We can't all be the lover to Rupert Murdoch's gimp.

 

[nomadologist]

What does any of this have to do with the *American* political spectrum, or the FBI, or fucking Fox News? Aside from the fact that, being American, they're things YOU can relate to? The woman is British and was arrested in Britain under British law. I was discussing the case with Gavin and Noel before you stuck your oar in with a completely uncalled-for (and, I hasted to add, entirely untrue) accusation that "people like me" - who form a well-define and identifiable community within the population, apparently - would no doubt be defending freedom of speech with our very lives if the person on trial were a Christian fundamentalist or white supremacist. Which is both offensive and totally wrong. And for the LAST TIME, she was NOT arrested for 'writing poetry' (why do I get the impression I'm addressing a brick wall, here?), and I don't give a toss about whatever right-wing people you may have met. And you give yourself the right to dictate to me what I think about hate-crime legislation (as it happens, I am in favour of it) and start talking about some totally irrelevant crime in America as if it's meant to reflect in any way what I think.

Looks like Britain is taking yet another step back into the dark ages, as the Empire continues to crumble. Let's arrest anybody who even fantasizes about terrorism! Yeah. Cool. That'll work.

Rule Britainnia.

 

[nomadologist]

So a muslim woman can't own a book called "How to Win Hand to Hand Combat", but every fucking veteran of a foreign war in your country probably can and does? Or do you only enforce the law when muslims break it?

 

[Mr. Tea]

Looks like Britain is taking yet another step back into the dark ages, as the Empire continues to crumble.

Aww, shoot - first India, and now this!

 

[nomadologist]

Yeah, first it was just land, now it's any semblence of a national identity that is not leeching off American hideousness.

 

[vimothy]

I don't care if you didn't say anything about hate crime legislation--I DID. I brought it up to point out yet another flagrant hypocrisy among the pro-war right: the application of hate crime legislation to muslims and the refusal to apply it to homophobia and other hate-related incidents.

Yes, I didn't, but YOU DID -- you said that I was against hate crime legislation -- even though, as you're now admitting, you were fully aware that I've said no such thing, i.e. you were simply making stuff up to try to advance your argument:

But you're the SAME PEOPLE who are anti-hate crime legislation.​

I know that case was happening in the U.K. I was talking about the fact that similar things happen in the U.S. all the time, and pointing out how wrong damaging it is to limit free speech to only those speech acts the government likes

You could have made that point, nomadologist, but you didn't. Instead you chose to sling insults and post an overly emotive story from America whilst ranting that I know nothing about it, to make a point that didn't even need to be made.

Hate crime legislation, like war crimes legislation, is not at all irrelevant to free speech, but keep dreaming Vimothy.

No -- it impacts on free specch very clearly, and so you obviously should be addressing this to Gavin, since Gavin is the only person on this thread who appears to disagree with your position.

Oh yeah, and make another reference to me being "opiated" as if I am, one, and as if that's at all relevant, two.

Just stop being so rude, then. It is perfectly possible to have arguments with people without constantly calling them names.

Spoiled? Oh snap.

We can't all be the lover to Rupert Murdoch's gimp.

Etc ...

 

[nomadologist]

Your ideology represents everything that is wrong with the world, Vim, so it's hard not to have a strong reaction against it. Everything you espouse that I can think of off the top of my head happens to be everything that is having an extremely adverse effect on the world right now.

To the point where there really is no point in bothering, so I'll stick to the more interesting music threads.

Have a blast guys.

 

[noel emits]

It's just a question but how can we even talk about personal responsibility in such narrow terms anymore? This girl has not been accused of directly hurting anyone so maybe we have an ethical duty to look at some causes of what she has done if we are to convict her of a crime? Then we can decide if it was morally wrong of her to do what she did.

 

[Gavin]

Vimothy, do you feel safer now that the lyrical terrorist is off the streets? Now that she can't threaten you with instruction manuals? Is this really making anyone safer?

Is this the best your cops can do? Jesus, can't your law enforcement entrap people properly in fake plots like we do in the states?

As for hate crime legislation, I am on the fence... There is evidence that it's increasingly used against minorities, which is unsurprising. The law is a tool to further the interests those in power and exacerbate inequality that the current system relies upon. I won't be surprised when blacks and Muslims are facing the majority of hate crime charges.

There is no evidence that harsher prison sentences are a useful deterrent to crime (particularly thought-crime) either.

 

[nomadologist]

Yeah, unfortunately hate crime legislation is not foolproof, but when I was talking about its benefits, I was not talking about benefits being a way of deterring people from commiting crime. As far as this is concerned, there aren't any real foolproof ways to deter people from committing crimes, aside from (in a very very broad sense) access to financial resources and education.

The extra sentence time is just to keep them off the streets so other people don't have to deal with them.

 

[Mr. Tea]

As for hate crime legislation, I am on the fence... There is evidence that it's increasingly used against minorities, which is unsurprising.

Well like it or lump it, some Muslims have some extremely hateful things to say about people. I of course agree that in principle they should have the right to *say* whatever they like, as we all should, but the crunch comes when you ask the question "is this person, by saying what they're saying, making it significantly more likely that other people are going to actually do something criminal and violent as a result?". That's the key moral point of the this whole argument: to what extent, if any, is it justifiable to take action against people before they commit acts of violence, on the basis that they seem likely to if left alone?
As to where I stand on this, I'm not really sure, as I've said; I can see there are arguments both for and against.

And in reply to this:

do you feel safer now that the lyrical terrorist is off the streets?

I can say I feel safer now that she's no longer working at Heathrow airport.

 

[Gavin]

Well like it or lump it, some Muslims have some extremely hateful things to say about people. I of course agree that in principle they should have the right to *say* whatever they like, as we all should, but the crunch comes when you ask the question "is this person, by saying what they're saying, making it significantly more likely that other people are going to actually do something criminal and violent as a result?".

So you support the doctrine of pre-emptive war as well?

That's the key moral point of the this whole argument: to what extent, if any, is it justifiable to take action against people before they commit acts of violence, on the basis that they seem likely to if left alone?

You know what's really useful? Since as yet we aren't able to read minds to determine "violent" thoughts (though thankfully we can interpret bad poetry as literally as we like), we can simply match rates of incarceration to highly visible skin color and arrest people accordingly! Of course Arabs are much more likely to bomb public places, at least according to Hollywood movies (though white supremacists have committed more terrorist acts on U.S. soil than Muslims). And black people are more likely to commit crime, especially young poor ones. So why don't we just, you know, PROFILE them based on their RACE, not on the basis of actually having committed any crimes. I'm sure we'll all be safer, and isn't that the goal of free societies?

 

[Mr. Tea]

being a Muslim <------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> learning how to make bombs and writing poetry about beheading unbelievers

 

[Gavin]

learning how to make bombs and writing poetry about beheading unbelievers

A ha, so you do conflate poetry and bombmaking!

My point Tea, is not that you explicitly support pre-emptive war and racial profiling (though maybe you do, I don't know), but the logic of your "ethical" position certainly leaves ample room for these practices, which are currently wreaking more havoc than Islamist bombs, fictional, potential or actual. That all freedoms can be suspended for an indefinite amount of extra "safety," of course unquantifiable and left to the discretion of those supplying the tasers and flak jackets.