Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

[mixed_biscuits]

@yyaldrin would you also spy on Jews without Israeli citizenship?

 

[kid charlemagne]

How would you ethnically cleanse Israel of Jews?

peace on earth

 

[Clinamenic]

 

[mixed_biscuits]

@version do you disapprove of yyaldrin's plans for the mass of Israeli Jews? Or do you consider it to be a stance that only makes sense as a side effect of commitment to dialectic.

 

[version]

Can you not tell what he's doing?

 

[Mr. Tea]

Can you not tell what he's doing?

It's impossible to tell whether he's too dotrinaire or too stupid to see the point yy's making, or can actually see it is but is pretending he can't, because that would constitute an admission that he understands the reality of what's going on.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

The fact that you think it's a highly apposite switcheroo reveals that you're just as anti-semitic and horrendously blinkered as yyaldrin is: killing 100% of the population is in no way equivalent to what Israel has done.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

There are reasons why some in this thread have been determined to paint Israel's action as genocide even before they'd done anything - and that's to justify a genocide in return. So, no, yyaldrin doesn't get to climb down from his position because I believe it to be 100% sincere in that context. And if he's not being sincere then he's being very stupid.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

I'd like to know why the Jewish or part-Jewish posters have not posted in this thread for so long.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

I've had the impression that the 'anti-zionists' began to consider any Jew to be complicit in the actions they disparage, merely because no matter how much they might try to make nice with hotheads like yyaldrin he will always find them crucially lacking in the required anti-zionist fervour.

Note that his plan does not discriminate between peacenik Israelis and belligerent ones despite the fact that Israel has been unusually scrupulous in trying to avoid innocent casualties in a conflict in which Hamas are dead-set on using them as pawns.

 

[Mr. Tea]

The fact that you think it's a highly apposite switcheroo reveals that you're just as anti-semitic and horrendously blinkered as yyaldrin is: killing 100% of the population is in no way equivalent to what Israel has done.

Many Israelis, including senior members of the government and military, advocate precisely that. And it's what will happen eventually if there's no cessation to the killing.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Your attitude is also that this is justified for as long as a single Hamas militant remains alive and unsurrendered to potentially threaten Israelis. The idea that Israelis also pose a threat to Palestinians, and a far greater one at that, apparently presents you with an impossible cognitive difficulty.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Many Israelis, including senior members of the government and military, advocate precisely that. And it's what will happen eventually if there's no cessation to the killing.

Including, or rather especially, their PM, who has made references to the Biblical genocide of the Amalekites:

“This is what the Lord Almighty says,” the prophet Samuel tells Saul. “‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

So if you think that kind of rhetoric is acceptable, then advocating the total extermination of Israeli Jews is equivalent, is it not?

The only difference is that only one side is capable of actually doing this, and it's your guys, isn't it?

 

[yyaldrin]

I've had the impression that the 'anti-zionists' began to consider any Jew to be complicit in the actions they disparage, merely because no matter how much they might try to make nice with hotheads like yyaldrin he will always find them crucially lacking in the required anti-zionist fervour.

Note that his plan does not discriminate between peacenik Israelis and belligerent ones despite the fact that Israel has been unusually scrupulous in trying to avoid innocent casualties in a conflict in which Hamas are dead-set on using them as pawns.

Letter to the Jewish Community of the City of Vienna

Dear Sirs, June 17, 1982

Please do not take this letter and the step communicated in it lightly. For I am not only the taxpayer Günther Stern mentioned in your lists, but also someone else. My friend Friedrich Heer, who recently held a laudatio for me, asked in the last Jüdische Echo: “Who of Vienna’s Jews knows him?” In short: I am Günther Anders, internationally known, winner of the Cultural Prize of the State of Austria and the City of Vienna (of which only you have never taken note), probably the most internationally renowned Austrian Jew, apart from the Chancellor and Mr. Wiesenthal. Furthermore, unlike the former, I am a very conscious Jew who wrote about the Auschwitz “topic” so early (40 years ago) and so continuously as very few others have (most recently in Visit to Hades, Munich 1979). In a text published by a protestant publishing house (My Judaism, Kreuzverlag) you will find the following sentence by me: “Nothing fills me with such shame as meeting a fellow Jew who is ashamed of his Jewishness.” And at a congress in Warsaw, I succeeded in getting Arabs to lay a wreath for the Jewish dead on the steps of the ghetto monument where I was speaking.

So when I explain to you that I have decided to leave the local community, you cannot explain this step with “Jewish self-hatred” (which I detest). My family lives in Israel, by the way, and consists exclusively of Israelis. And my visit to Jerusalem remains unforgettable to me. (…)

Jews with whom I feel a sense of belonging, and of whom I would be proud, if one could be proud of others, are figures like Isaiah, Maimonides, and Spinoza. But under no circumstances do I mean those with unrestrained disregard for all human dignity and all human rights. You know who I am talking about. If this man—I almost said, this poor fellow—has become the way he is now, it is probably because the barbaric treatment of his own people has helped to barbarize him. You see: I am not being unfair. Nonetheless, what [Menachem] Begin has now done - and likewise, heartbreakingly, the Israeli people (who obey him as blindly as the German people obeyed Hitler when he exterminated 6 million of us) - what Begin has now done is beyond anything that could be defended as “reprisal” or “self-defense”. Begin has indeed managed to make me, the self-hating hater, blush at the thought of belonging.

It is completely undignified and an inexcusable moral imposition when you—men and women of the Jewish community—defend the bloody infamy that took place there, no: even call on us, as you have just done, to verbally defend the slaughter everywhere. I am ashamed to belong to such a community. As a nearly eighty-year-old, I do not want to see my dignity deteriorate along with my physical strength. That is why I am giving up my membership!

Of course, this does not mean that I am leaving Judaism. That is impossible. Even a completely faithless Jew like me cannot do that. And even if one could, I would declare, in a variation of the notorious Lueger sentence: “I decide whether I am a Jew or not.”

(…) Shalom!

Günther Anders, Das Argument 136 (1982), 847

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Many Israelis, including senior members of the government and military, advocate precisely that. And it's what will happen eventually if there's no cessation to the killing.

You can't base your opinion of Israel on a small minority.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Your attitude is also that this is justified for as long as a single Hamas militant remains alive and unsurrendered to potentially threaten Israelis. The idea that Israelis also pose a threat to Palestinians, and a far greater one at that, apparently presents you with an impossible cognitive difficulty.

No, that isn't my attitude. My point is only to give the Israeli rationale for the action i.e. to eliminate an existential threat. One Hamas fighter does not constitute an existential threat (and anyway the org would have surrendered by then).

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Including, or rather especially, their PM, who has made references to the Biblical genocide of the Amalekites:

“This is what the Lord Almighty says,” the prophet Samuel tells Saul. “‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

So if you think that kind of rhetoric is acceptable, then advocating the total extermination of Israeli Jews is equivalent, is it not?

The only difference is that only one side is capable of actually doing this, and it's your guys, isn't it?

I've already rebutted this. You're on ignore from now on because you don't know how to debate. You just repeat your original point without dealing with effective critique.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Letter to the Jewish Community of the City of Vienna

Dear Sirs, June 17, 1982

Please do not take this letter and the step communicated in it lightly. For I am not only the taxpayer Günther Stern mentioned in your lists, but also someone else. My friend Friedrich Heer, who recently held a laudatio for me, asked in the last Jüdische Echo: “Who of Vienna’s Jews knows him?” In short: I am Günther Anders, internationally known, winner of the Cultural Prize of the State of Austria and the City of Vienna (of which only you have never taken note), probably the most internationally renowned Austrian Jew, apart from the Chancellor and Mr. Wiesenthal. Furthermore, unlike the former, I am a very conscious Jew who wrote about the Auschwitz “topic” so early (40 years ago) and so continuously as very few others have (most recently in Visit to Hades, Munich 1979). In a text published by a protestant publishing house (My Judaism, Kreuzverlag) you will find the following sentence by me: “Nothing fills me with such shame as meeting a fellow Jew who is ashamed of his Jewishness.” And at a congress in Warsaw, I succeeded in getting Arabs to lay a wreath for the Jewish dead on the steps of the ghetto monument where I was speaking.

So when I explain to you that I have decided to leave the local community, you cannot explain this step with “Jewish self-hatred” (which I detest). My family lives in Israel, by the way, and consists exclusively of Israelis. And my visit to Jerusalem remains unforgettable to me. (…)

Jews with whom I feel a sense of belonging, and of whom I would be proud, if one could be proud of others, are figures like Isaiah, Maimonides, and Spinoza. But under no circumstances do I mean those with unrestrained disregard for all human dignity and all human rights. You know who I am talking about. If this man—I almost said, this poor fellow—has become the way he is now, it is probably because the barbaric treatment of his own people has helped to barbarize him. You see: I am not being unfair. Nonetheless, what [Menachem] Begin has now done - and likewise, heartbreakingly, the Israeli people (who obey him as blindly as the German people obeyed Hitler when he exterminated 6 million of us) - what Begin has now done is beyond anything that could be defended as “reprisal” or “self-defense”. Begin has indeed managed to make me, the self-hating hater, blush at the thought of belonging.

It is completely undignified and an inexcusable moral imposition when you—men and women of the Jewish community—defend the bloody infamy that took place there, no: even call on us, as you have just done, to verbally defend the slaughter everywhere. I am ashamed to belong to such a community. As a nearly eighty-year-old, I do not want to see my dignity deteriorate along with my physical strength. That is why I am giving up my membership!

Of course, this does not mean that I am leaving Judaism. That is impossible. Even a completely faithless Jew like me cannot do that. And even if one could, I would declare, in a variation of the notorious Lueger sentence: “I decide whether I am a Jew or not.”

(…) Shalom!

Günther Anders, Das Argument 136 (1982), 847

The chutzpah you have to compare the Jews to the Nazis through a Jewish voice is just unbelievable.

 

[kid charlemagne]

mixed buiscuits if we become pro trump and anti kamala, will you become pro hamas and anti israel? fair exchange?

 

[Mr. Tea]

mixed buiscuits if we become pro trump and anti kamala, will you become pro hamas and anti israel?

Given that abortion is legal in Israel and illegal in Gaza, this ought to be his position already.