Art and Morality

IdleRich

IdleRich
"i think you've wrapped up all the substantive ways Rich, great post (and thread)."
Thanks mate, I nicked most of it off my girlfriend I have to say.

"i'd like to think i have some aesthetics first ethic going on (e.g. no probs with robustly phrased rap) but that intersection where (what you consider) critical taste and your moral response to something meeting makes it very hard to engage with/defend some things."
I think that most of us would have some things that we like that we can't defend (or at least can't defend aspects of) morally and so it must be that morality of art isn't totally overriding. Certainly in the second type I mentioned above which I think you're talking about here.
I reckon you're right about how difficult it is to get any distance when your moral and aesthetic instincts are pulling you in different directions, especially if one or more of them are doing it strongly.

"Virginia Woolf was aesthetics first IIRC."
How do you mean?
 

zhao

there are no accidents
triumph of the will is an inspiring and great little film, formally speaking.

There's the idea that our popular art is all a reflection, or a symptom, not the cause of selfishness in people, but that's doesn't seem to be the whole truth. It seems like there are a lot of different routes people and culture could take, but in choosing and promoting certain tendencies or ideals , there becomes this kind of escalating, intensifying feedback-loop. The people get dumber and sleazier and the popular art gets dumber and sleazier and it goes on and on. Marxists and the religious could sit back and say "told ya so", and they'd probably be right.

So yeah, I don't necessarily get hung up on subcultural or artistic meditations on the various shades of human-nature (though I still think some qualities, especially now, are less necessary), but when certain negative things are being pushed on people as the norm, when they filter into the mainstream for less than artistic motivations, that's when it seems to become a problem..

i would agree with the above. nice post. and would like to add a larger historical perspective: what a culture chooses to represent in its art in a certain era is absolutely motivated by politics and power relations. example:

(may have mentioned this before) heard about the evolution of museum representations of the T-Rex from a professional "display designer" (or whatever they're called):

in the post war 50s and 60s they were shown in context of the family, father and mother T-Rex's protecting 2.5 children T-Rex's.

in the grabby grabby 80s this changed across the board to showing lone male T-Rex's in aggressive hunting mode.

in the 1990s it changed again... but at the moment i'm failing to remember the characteristics.

and this person was saying that non of it matches what T-Rexs were actually like, according to the scientific community.

EDIT:

expanding the above T-Rex dynamic to entire historical periods and the same things happen on a larger scale, in relation to Foucault's notion of the "episteme".

and even further, i believe the art and cultural production of an entire civilization, can be, in fundamental ways, biased.
 
Last edited:

IdleRich

IdleRich
triumph of the will is an inspiring and great little film, formally speaking.
But you have to qualify that right? You obviously feel that there is some flaw there or you would have just said "T of the Will is an inspiring and great film".
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
This thread suddenly takes on greater relevance in the light of comments by artistic Arsenal's latest footballing aesthete.

“If I had it in my power to introduce a ban on women driving cars and to withdraw all their licences, I would do it without thinking twice,” he said in his book.


“In my opinion a woman and a man are two absolutely different creatures.”

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/article2206464.ece
 

littlebird

Wild Horses
In fact, to be honest, I suppose that you could ask the same question in a more general way and just ask if it's possible to enjoy an artwork when you strongly disagree with what you think it's saying or the methods used to say it but it's just that anecdotally I get the feeling that most people criticise taking a moral stance.

i think your example of 'The Waterfront' is a fair one, as was the first responders mention of 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers'.

i think often the "morals" or "moral dilemna" in question, and how it affects the way one feels about the art, depends somewhat on how personally affecting the moral/issue in question is to the viewer. is a distance to the subject matter possible? or is it far too currently topical, or deeply personal, to see as anything but morally wrong/insulting.
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
I think that most of us would have some things that we like that we can't defend (or at least can't defend aspects of) morally and so it must be that morality of art isn't totally overriding. Certainly in the second type I mentioned above which I think you're talking about here.
I reckon you're right about how difficult it is to get any distance when your moral and aesthetic instincts are pulling you in different directions, especially if one or more of them are doing it strongly.

"Virginia Woolf was aesthetics first IIRC."

How do you mean?

really like your first two paragraphs i've quoted Rich.

re Woolf, Droid concisely said earlier (though he was not talking about her)
Thats a different question though - whether the opinions and acts of an artist should be taken into consideration when judging their art. I think the answer has to be no
and i think her aesthetic approach was like that.

that's just from reading Harold Bloom on Woolf and Walter Pater, etc. which must mean i am not taking into account other scholarship on the issue.

great T-Rex example from Zhao!

perhaps in 20 years time a bluey slipped into the reel of the Superbowl coverage will not provoke such a storm..
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"and i think her aesthetic approach was like that.
that's just from reading Harold Bloom on Woolf and Walter Pater, etc. which must mean i am not taking into account other scholarship on the issue."
OK, got you. She had some strange views I guess. Never really liked her books much though anyway....
I reckon another way in which an artwork might be considered immoral is if people die or are hurt in making it. I guess the obvious example is Fitz Carraldo during which I believe a number of people were killed. Is that a flaw in the film or is it an even that is external to the film itself in the same way as people are able to divorce the morality of the actual film maker? I reckon that people do tend to feel slightly uncomfortable about that film though don't they?

Actually, having said this

"I think that most of us would have some things that we like that we can't defend (or at least can't defend aspects of) morally and so it must be that morality of art isn't totally overriding"
I guess that's a statement of how, pragmatically, we deal with art we consider immoral but it's not really a prescription for how we ought to deal with it. Just the fact that this is the case doesn't necessarily imply that we are justified in doing it.
 

slim jenkins

El Hombre Invisible
How many horses were killed making old westerns - that's what worries me. And Indians. I'm assuming the ox in 'Apocalypse Now' was due for the chop anyway? And the pig in 'Southern Comfort'?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"3. The art was made by someone who is immoral. Not so sure what the argument for this is really but it does crop up a lot. Maybe you could say that you can assume that if it's made by a "bad" person then the message (as in point 1) is bad but I personally don't find this compelling."
Just thinking about a slight variation on this. I still don't think that you can judge art based on the previous actions of the person who made it but there is a Japanese film called The Bedroom where one of the characters is played by a convicted murderer (and cannibal in fact) who escaped justice due to adminstrative mix-ups between France and Japan. Using this guy as an actor is a deliberately provocative move on the director's part in my opinion and if this is a moral failing then I think it can arguably be considered to be a failing of the film.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
We were eaten up by repressed violence and we were soured by the constant terror of the inconceivable violence being committed on ourselves and the rest of man. From this we had strugglingly produced a culture. It's possible to get hysterical over the obvious connection between that culture, as it stood in 1965, and the Moors Murders. I did. It's possible to get carping about it. Pamela Hansford Johnson did. It's possible to pretend there isn't a connection. That's rubbish.

Romantics, Symbolists, Dada, Surrealists, Existentialists, Action painters, Beat poets and the Royal Shakespeare Companyhad all applauded de Sade from some aspect or other. To Ian Brady de Sade was a licence to kill children. We had all at some time cried 'Yes yes' to Blake's 'sooner murder an infant in his cradle than nurse an unacted desire'. Brady did it.

...Moral shame, moral absurdity, moral abuse, moral outrage had frozen us at a point of almost total negativity. The way out was numbing the moral sense and the use of sensation, the pain and the anger as propulsion. In the perilous adventure towards movement and construction there was the possibility of terrible catastrophe. The catastrophe fell on the heads of Brady and Hindley, who were less sophisticated and less prepared, who did not know yet how vicously ill they were...

A poet, when told of the first rumours of the Moors Murders, nodded and said 'Ah, it's started.'

(Jeff Nuttall, Bomb Culture)
 

empty mirror

remember the jackalope
How many horses were killed making old westerns - that's what worries me. And Indians. I'm assuming the ox in 'Apocalypse Now' was due for the chop anyway? And the pig in 'Southern Comfort'?

well... cruelty to animals is one of the few instances in which any consideration of "morality" enters my head when i am viewing a movie

tarkovsky's Andrei Rublev----there's a horse that is shot in the neck, pushed down a set of stairs and stabbed with a pike

john waters' pink flamingos----chicken rape scene

old boy----live octopus consumption

the whole morality in art thing brings to mind aristotle (who objected to instruments such as the flute or triangle that were too exciting, and required virtuosity [which slides down the slope to entertainment (gasp)])----it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth

i think art has an obligation to be morally objectionable
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
the whole morality in art thing brings to mind aristotle (who objected to instruments such as the flute or triangle that were too exciting, and required virtuosity [which slides down the slope to entertainment (gasp)])

Haha, Aristotle as the first anti-rockist - or maybe the precursor to Detroit techno purists? :)

Slim already mentioned the cow in Apocalypse Now..Mrs. Tea refuses to watch it on that basis, and she's not a vegetarian so it's not as if she feels cows have an absolute right not to be killed by humans, it's more about the way it's killed I think.

My attitude is more "well that's probably how they kill cows all the time in that part of the world, all Coppola did was turn up with a film crew and shoot the scene". I.e. if they hadn't been making the film, there's a pretty good chance the cow would have met a similar end anwyway.
 
Last edited:

craner

Beast of Burden
Now there's a book I really need to read...

The Sensations show and the BYA are a large part of this debate, which leads to: what is contemorary art (apart from commerce, but morally and ethically), what is being tought to humanities students the world over, and what values we are being fed (or lack of them) in relation to culture? It's a huge and mesmerising and absorbing debate, which Nuttall's book bravely touches upon years before it became endemic, and a cash-cow. Haven't had time to read this whole thread, so I'm wading in blindly, but it really fascinates me, not least because of my taste in Euro-expolitation cinema, which certainly rubs around this.
 

Tentative Andy

I'm in the Meal Deal
Ok, going to order it a copy off Amazon I think. One of the things that annoys me about deciding to take music seriously again over the last couple of months is that I now feel compartively much less informed about literature, been reading much less. What you gain on the the swings you lose on the roundabouts, and all that.
Sorry for slight thread derail. It's all about me, isn't it? :eek:
 
Top