Jungle

[dilbert1]

Fukayama dropped in '92, its not my fault the rave scene was illiterate

 

[dilbert1]

sure, skunk psychosis can be fun, also. But you don't think so.

Yeah I do I'm pretty high right now

 

[thirdform]

Not totally, when its doing its job. I think the revivalists have the right idea going back to where things left off, but a lot of the time they're stuck there. Its got to be bombastic, balls out, stunning. I think one of the reasons jungle was innovative was because it expanded the limits of what someone might hear on the dance floor, rhythmically and linguistically too. Ridiculous shocking things, laughable sometimes, or spine-tingling, or uncannily familiar.

Yes but this is my point! the cultural elements don't exist for that anymore!

MDMA is routinised and passe.
most people have racially integrated families and friend groups, rather than jungle expressing that field of tension and negotiation.
Rave descended clubbing is the main stream.
Easy availability of housing doesn't exist. Squatting is finished.
Pirate radio is no longer the centre of gravity.

 

[thirdform]

Fukayama dropped in '92, its not my fault the rave scene was illiterate

or alternatively he didn't know about the rave scene. huge l on his part.

 

[thirdform]

Yes but this is my point! the cultural elements don't exist for that anymore!

MDMA is routinised and passe.
most people have racially integrated families and friend groups, rather than jungle expressing that field of tension and negotiation.
Rave descended clubbing is the main stream.
Easy availability of housing doesn't exist. Squatting is finished.
Pirate radio is no longer the centre of gravity.

and most importantly, people know what they're doing.

they didn't, (not to the same degree) not in the classic jungle era. That's why it sounds so innovative. It's the musical mistakes and the wrong bits which are the innovation.

 

[thirdform]

the mixdown isn't even right in something like this. the bass will sound totally messed up on a modern club system.


That's why it's great, obvs. But technical requirements were much less strict then.

 

[dilbert1]

I agree for the most part but I also think that last bit is a slightly romantic Reynolds-ism. Less inhibition and technical precision means some things don't register as 'wrong' in the first place. I dunno if poor mixing was what made that tune great, its just that the less strict technical requirements didn't prevent it from being perceived as such. Nowadays the only requirements are technical.

 

[thirdform]

I agree for the most part but I also think that last bit is a slightly romantic Reynolds-ism. Less inhibition and technical precision means some things don't register as 'wrong' in the first place. I dunno if poor mixing was what made that tune great, its just that the less strict technical requirements didn't prevent it from being perceived as such. Nowadays the only requirements are technical.

Sure, but that comes with the development of audio technology. It's not like it's a problem exclusive to jungle, all dance music genres became about technical requirements. from happy hardcore to house/techno to gabber to trance.

This is why certain lo fi house and techno is seen as outsider or experimental, precisely because form determines function, in the case of the physical speaker racks.

 

[thirdform]

I basically think club culture is dead and we're witnessing its last gasp. the jungle revival stuff has to be seen in that context. Appreciate it as music rather than as something outrageously uncanny or detourning, because this is it. dance music is aging gracefully into comfortable conservatism (musically speaking.)

 

[dilbert1]

Ok, but if someone had come in and adjusted the mix on the Skeleton tune so it was audible on a system, do you really think everybody in the place would miss out on innovation? For the most part mixing is sort of technical and incidental. By wrong bits and mistakes I thought you were referring more to programming and composition, etc.

 

[thirdform]

And maybe that is a good thing in the longrun, maybe that means mass culture is losing its potency and capitalism has less and less safety valves available.

 

[thirdform]

Ok, but if someone had come in and adjusted the mix on the Skeleton tune so it was audible on a system, do you really think everybody in the place would miss out on innovation? For the most part mixing is sort of technical and incidental. By wrong bits and mistakes I thought you were referring more to programming and composition, etc.

kinda, electronic music is about timbre, so is something is overcompressed and clean, it ends up merging into slush.

rnb compensates for this by being about songs and hummable tunes.

 

[dilbert1]

I basically think club culture is dead and we're witnessing its last gasp. the jungle revival stuff has to be seen in that context. Appreciate it as music rather than as something outrageously uncanny or detourning, because this is it. dance music is aging gracefully into comfortable conservatism (musically speaking.)

If some stimulating sounds can be made in its tomb, so be it

 

[thirdform]

Ok, but if someone had come in and adjusted the mix on the Skeleton tune so it was audible on a system, do you really think everybody in the place would miss out on innovation? For the most part mixing is sort of technical and incidental. By wrong bits and mistakes I thought you were referring more to programming and composition, etc.

but also this is my point!

Those old tunes sound great to us because we aren't seeking perfection in sound. we want shit to be muddy, to hint at the other sound, to create gaps in the audible field where our brain compensates.

Yer average clubber just wants stuff to sound good and banging. and if that means abusing sidechain compression and making sure everything is punching out, then so be it.

 

[thirdform]

If some stimulating sounds can be made in its tomb, so be it

yeah that's what I thought about the om unit/sam binga, and the other two. I don't think they're all that experimental or abstract (dj music after all), they were just stimulating.

but sure not classic jungle, more so dnb. Always admitted that.

anyway top classic jungle.

 

[dilbert1]

we want shit to be muddy, to hint at the other sound, to create gaps in the audible field where our brain compensates.

But if we think tunes can only sound like this by accident in 1992-4, thats how you end up with a load of nostalgic cliches and fake ‘dusty’ plug-ins. Can’t there be some artistry to this effect?

 

[thirdform]

But if we think tunes can only sound like this by accident in 1992-4, thats how you end up with a load of nostalgic cliches and fake ‘dusty’ plug-ins. Can’t there be some artistry to this effect?

I mean its popular capitalist culture. Of course there's artistry on an ideological level. But it's ultimately made to satisfy commercial requirements. be that bringing punters to the raves, selling records, etc.

 

[thirdform]

But if we think tunes can only sound like this by accident in 1992-4, thats how you end up with a load of nostalgic cliches and fake ‘dusty’ plug-ins. Can’t there be some artistry to this effect?

it's not even just accident. the sound systems were weaker, there were less official club premises, rickety warehouses were the standard, etc.

The peak superclub era came in the late 90s/early 2000s.

 

[thirdform]

dance music people wanted everything to be bigger and better, but of course they never understood the quantitative to qualitative transformation.

So now theyve got what they want.

 

[dilbert1]

it's not even just accident. the sound systems were weaker, there were less official club premises, rickety warehouses were the standard, etc.

This is literally a description of a historical accident!