High profiles murders in the U.S: what is going on?

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
You say rape is disgusting but don't seem to recognize risk reduction to be a good thing because I'm looking at it from the "man's perspective" and it would have happened anyway (even though from the story it clearly wouldn't).

Yes, because rapists are really picky--they only rape people who are super sloppy drunk.

I never said anything "would have happened anyway", I said that if you go home with random strangers, anything can happen. Hell, you can get raped just for existing in the same household with rapist. You can get raped at school. You can get raped in an alley. A home invader can rape you.

Whether you're drunk or not is really immaterial.

But I suppose since alcohol is so all-powerful when it comes to sexual assault, a drunk woman sitting at home is much more likely to be raped by an intruder than a sober woman at home alone. Stalkers usually wait until women are drunk to rape them.

("Thanks, Daddy, for talking some sense into me. It's just too dangerous to go out drinking with friends. The world is too big and scary for a delicate flower like Little Ole Me. I suppose I should just dantily sip wine, or better yet stay home with you, since you're so big and strong *starry eyes,magical thinking*, while I wait for my Knight in Shining Armor to come along sweep me off my feet. I'm just going to have tears streaming down when you finally give me away at our wedding, me in my big white virginy dress, after He asks you for your permission to marry me, of course. Hopefully I'll have a son to dote on one day. Then I'll be whole.")
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
You know, this thread isn't the first time I've read or heard a Brit decrying the new feminist (of course) "increase" (not a hysterical media fabrication or anything) in "women drinking like men."

This seems to rank right up there with the "hoodies are the end of civilization as we know it" public crisis (both very popular to pull out during internet debates about gender equity or the violence that always comes on the heels of high charting hip-hop) of yesteryear.

The UK's problems, if these are really the big important problems Brits seem to think they are, are so trivial as to seem utterly ridiculous. If these are the most pressing social problems you all have to worry about you're damn lucky.
 

Shonx

Shallow House
I don't believe in the "family" myth, I don't believe families need be the centralmost unit of human social organization. This is not tantamount to misandry. I could go on all day about why. This doesn't mean men are "bad", it just means I don't think men are or should be the "natural" center or authority figure in a family, as most people believe. If I hear one more person blame fatherless homes for situations that are CLEARLY caused by economic hardship and disparity, I'm going to lose it.

To be honest, I don't believe nuclear families are natural either. Biologically speaking, there's no great need for the male to stick around anyway. As you say, children would be nurtured and protected by the tribe, which in communities with a sufficient enough support structure (friends, extended family, etc) they still are to an extent. It seems fairly clear to me that a lot of single parent families are economically disadvantaged too, where subsidised child care and/or that community is not available, where certain jobs cannot be taken due to responsibilities, and thus leave mostly low-paying jobs or welfare to support them. So it's not necessarily the single-parent unit that's at fault in itself, but what generally goes along with it i.e. poverty.

You've touched on lack of male role models (and we agree that it's mostly mum's left to look after the kids), and I think that male children need to have some guidance in how to grow to be a man and identify with males. Getting back to the original thread question, there seem to be two particular elements that may contribute to children growing into violent adults with misogynist tendencies - one of them being a domineering, abusive mother and the other witnessing the male parent/step-parent/boyfriend attacking the mother.

I can see how being left with a child to bring up alone may cause resentment to the father, and I think children being more perceptive than we often think, may infer that male=useless, lazy, possibly violent and irresponsible. I think that where perception of masculinity is negative, there is a subconscious draw to rebalance, which may look for more positive examples to aspire to, or may just look at ways to bring down females. I'm not saying this IS the way it is, I'm just suggesting why it MIGHT be, which is what the original question regarded wasn't it?

Just like you have yours to hold women to a double standard where certain behaviors are "worse" in females. Just admit it, you don't think it's ladylike. It doesn't flatter your ego. It's ok. It's always best to be honest with yourself isnt' it?

What double-standard is that? I don't think it's admirable in men either if you read a few pages back. People getting so drunk they can't remember the night before aren't interesting at the time or anecdotally. Is drinking heavily manly? Given that it often leads to impotence and diminishes testosterone levels hardly. It mostly causes the Id, the inner toddler to come out when drunk in excess, so it's hardly adult even. People drinking is fine, drunks are generally quite dull, it's got nothing to do with whether it's acceptable or not - equality to self-destruct is hardly something to aspire to I would have thought.

I still believe that ANYONE that goes out and gets drunk makes more impulsive choices, can get into situations they didn't want to and will be less able to defend themselves when those situations arise. If a male was very drunk, to the point of barely being able to stand, and passed another male intent on beating up someone, he's not only made himself an easy target, he will be unable to escape or fight back too. Now it's not his fault he's being attacked, but if (as we seem to agree) there are dangerous shitbags out there, then it would be wise to be aware of this and by not being so drunk it would have reduced his attractiveness as a potential victim.

A lot of these crimes are often done because the circumstances indicated that the attacker could get away with it, and with an incapacitated drunk that becomes far more likely.

I'm fully aware that men get raped by the way, 1 in 10 of the US prison population for a start, and at least four people I know were raped whilst they were kids. It's not like an ohmigod!! moment for me. Having said that, I assume (you can correct me on this), that mostly happens from sexual predators in the gay scene, and so it's something that is statistically negligible in the non-incarcerated or hetero worlds.

Anyway Nomadthesecond, I'd rather go back to the original thread query if possible, was quite enjoying the discussion before it descended into gender politics, so I'd rather not get into a flame war based on any perceived offense. I may have missed some level of sensitivity on certain issues but I'm more interested in the reasons behind things rather than proving some agenda, so I apologise for that anyway. ;)
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Yes, because rapists are really picky--they only rape people who are super sloppy drunk.

I never said anything "would have happened anyway", I said that if you go home with random strangers, anything can happen. Hell, you can get raped just for existing in the same household with rapist. You can get raped at school. You can get raped in an alley. A home invader can rape you.

Whether you're drunk or not is really immaterial.

But I suppose since alcohol is so all-powerful when it comes to sexual assault, a drunk woman sitting at home is much more likely to be raped by an intruder than a sober woman at home alone. Stalkers usually wait until women are drunk to rape them.

Look, can you seriously not see that a person who is blind drunk is much more vulnerable to someone doing things to them against their will - be it robbery, rape, whatever - than they would be sober? You've never been at a house party where some guy's passed out and ended up with crapped daubed all over his face in lipstick and felt pen? As Shonx points out, this argument applies every bit as much to men as it does to women, the only difference being that men are presumably more likely to be violently (but pointlessly) assaulted, rather than raped.

Rapists aren't very nice people (duh). If some guy is prepared to do something like that at all, he's not going to hold back from molesting a drunk woman because it would be 'unsporting' - he's going to jump at the chance because it's easy pickings. Horrible, but true. And even ignoring the alcohol factor in how likely a rape is to occur in the first place, it's surely going to make it much more difficult to get a conviction if the victim can't remember what happened and what her attacker looked like or did to her, isn't it? I'm sure I don't have to mention how depressing the detection rate is for rape.

No-one - certainly no-one here, at any rate - is saying that a drunk woman 'deserves' to be raped any more than a sober one does, or that a drunk woman is 'asking to be raped', or that a man who rapes a drunk woman is in any way less morally culpable than the rapist of a sober woman. If anything, my instinct would be that it's even more despicable. But on a purely pragmatic level, a drunk woman - a drunk person - is more vulnerable. I can't see how this isn't screamingly self-evident.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
You know, this thread isn't the first time I've read or heard a Brit decrying the new feminist (of course) "increase" (not a hysterical media fabrication or anything) in "women drinking like men."

This seems to rank right up there with the "hoodies are the end of civilization as we know it" public crisis (both very popular to pull out during internet debates about gender equity or the violence that always comes on the heels of high charting hip-hop) of yesteryear.

The UK's problems, if these are really the big important problems Brits seem to think they are, are so trivial as to seem utterly ridiculous. If these are the most pressing social problems you all have to worry about you're damn lucky.

Ah yes, another familiar old nomadism: only America has real crime and social problems. Alcoholism in Britain is limited to the village rector getting a bit red-nosed on sweet sherry after evensong, crime consists principally of cheeky young scamps stealing apples from fist-shaking greengrocers and when children get involved in gangs it amounts to a conker cartel in the prep-school playground...
 
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jambo

slip inside my schlafsack
The point is, women shouldn't have to alter their lives because predators exist.
I agree with the sentiment but does anyone have to alter their life for any reason? You may as well say no-one 'should' have to do anything. What does it mean to 'alter your life', to alter it away from what - what you would rather do or not do? How far do you take it? Is it altering your life when you 'have' to eat and sleep and not open the cabin door in a flying aircraft or swim with sharks?

It's about choices given the circumstances as you see them and as you respond to what you see. You don't have to insist on your right to get utterly wasted, it's yours.
That's like passing the patriot act because Al Qaida exists. It doesn't work.
American's are still free to read the US constitution in their local libraries, the implications of this choice may have changed.
 

Shonx

Shallow House
Look, no-one - certainly no-one here, at any rate - is saying that a drunk woman 'deserves' to be raped any more than a sober one is, or that a drunk woman is 'asking to be raped', or that a man who rapes a drunk woman is in any way less morally culpable than the rapist of a sober woman. If anything, my instinct would be that it's even more despicable. But on a purely pragmatic level, a drunk woman - a drunk person - is more vulnerable. I can't see how this isn't screamingly self-evident.

Precisely, thanks Mr Tea. The amount of blokes I've known that went out, got bladdered and then got the shit kicked out of them for reasons that they were utterly unaware of are too numerous to mention. Would this have occurred if they weren't drunk - possibly, would they have been able to get out of this if they weren't drunk - possibly, were they able to avoid this whilst drunk - apparently not.

I've seen plenty of cases where women who were passed out in cars got raped by their taxi driver - would they have tried this if she was sober and able to identify them afterwards? Like I say, it's not a problem with drinking alcohol per se, it's very much a problem of drinking till paralytic and then having no idea what's going on, not knowing where your friends are, etc. The idea that women don't get into that state unless they've been spiked is a nonsense, because I've witnessed women (and men) that drunk on far too many occassions, some who injured themselves, ended up in hospital and had no idea how they got there - they got that drunk cause they could and they wanted to.

Do try and understand that this isn't being condescending to the poor ickle ladies, just that I have plenty of women friends that do get themselves this fucked and seem to think that because something hasn't happened yet that it won't. Most of them fortunately have good people around them, but this doesn't mean they're always there. I can remember ages back when I met up with a random group at the pub, ended up back at their friend's house chatting and boozing and by the end of the night their incredibly drunk friend had just basically fallen asleep in my lap, and they were all wandering off home - now I left with them, but if I'd been some rapist piece of shit, that would be a gift wouldn't it?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
The idea that women don't get into that state unless they've been spiked is a nonsense, because I've witnessed women (and men) that drunk on far too many occassions, some who injured themselves, ended up in hospital and had no idea how they got there - they got that drunk cause they could and they wanted to.

Yeah, someone I know on another forum said there's this woman who works in his office who, every Monday, would come in with some tale about how rough she felt on Saturday or Sunday morning and that someone "must've spiked her drink" the night before. So he'd say "Well how much did you drink?" and she'd be like "Oh, about five double vodkas..."
 

Shonx

Shallow House
Is five double vodkas a lot? That's just a warm up surely?

The girls I used to live with regularly drank at least a bottle of wine each before hitting the pubs and clubs.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Is five double vodkas a lot? That's just a warm up surely?

The girls I used to live with regularly drank at least a bottle of wine each before hitting the pubs and clubs.

Well yeah, she was obviously an amateur.
 

swears

preppy-kei
I have to agree that anybody (men and women) should seriously think twice before getting shitfaced and not having a clue what's going on. I woke up on my nan's lawn once at four in the morning with no idea how I'd got there, after going for a night out (fifteen miles away) in Liverpool. None of my friends took me home and I can't remember anything that had happened after about 11PM that evening. I know a few guys who've had their heads kicked in on a night out while they were wasted and a girl who was being basically carried out of a club paralytically drunk by a guy she'd never met before in her life, before her mates stepped in and stopped him.

Not to mention choking on your on vomit or alcohol poisoning, that's never a good look.
 

Shonx

Shallow House
A mate of mine managed to walk into a river and be too fucked to swim. Still not sure whether it was ketamine or booze that killed him though, he was quite a fan of both, generally simultaneously.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I have to agree that anybody (men and women) should seriously think twice before getting shitfaced and not having a clue what's going on. I woke up on my nan's lawn once at four in the morning with no idea how I'd got there, after going for a night out (fifteen miles away) in Liverpool. None of my friends took me home and I can't remember anything that had happened after about 11PM that evening. I know a few guys who've had their heads kicked in on a night out while they were wasted and a girl who was being basically carried out of a club paralytically drunk by a guy she'd never met before in her life, before her mates stepped in and stopped him.

Not to mention choking on your on vomit or alcohol poisoning, that's never a good look.

Just as well your nan's not a rapist, eh.

Shonx, I fully sympathise for what it's worth, a cousin of mine died a few years back under not-dissimilar circumstances, except he was on prescribed happy-happy pills rather than booze after going off the rails in a quite spectacular way. Just went off for a swim by himself and wasn't seen alive again, poor bastard. And just this evening I saw something in my uni's student paper about some guy who froze to death on a golf course, of all places, having got lost while pissed out of his face after a Hallowe'en party.

Hmm, this thread seems to have gone to quite a dark place. A quick cuppa then bed, I reckon.
 

Shonx

Shallow House
Hmm, this thread seems to have gone to quite a dark place.

What do you mean gone - did you read the thread title? ;)

Ah it's cool, writing an essay on Piaget, it's quite magical reading the explanations for why children are such utter mentals. such as attributing human characteristics to psychological processes

Q;Where is the dream whilst you are dreaming?
A: Beside me

My tutor the other week asked if as adults any of us had any genuinely new experiences in terms of something that we couldn't relate back to anything else. I did mention some mad sample tweaking accident which made me laugh for ages, but was so holding back from "yeah, the first time I took acid..." :D
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
What do you mean gone - did you read the thread title? ;)

Mmneurgh, I'm a bit of a spacker today.

My tutor the other week asked if as adults any of us had any genuinely new experiences in terms of something that we couldn't relate back to anything else. I did mention some mad sample tweaking accident which made me laugh for ages, but was so holding back from "yeah, the first time I took acid..." :D

Shame about the "as adults" qualifier there - I'd have thought one's first orgasm would be a pretty good example otherwise.

Hmm, yeah, psychedelics is kind of an obvious one for that - something I remember from a particularly heavy mushroom experience was wholly losing the ability to think in conceptual or verbal terms; all I could do was experience emotion. Reflecting on it when I'd come down a bit it occurred to me that that must be what it's like to be an animal.

Oh, or halloumi: it's a cheese, BUT YOU CAN FRY IT LIKE BACON! :rolleyes:

Right, I really am going to bed now.
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
To be honest, I don't believe nuclear families are natural either. Biologically speaking, there's no great need for the male to stick around anyway. As you say, children would be nurtured and protected by the tribe, which in communities with a sufficient enough support structure (friends, extended family, etc) they still are to an extent. It seems fairly clear to me that a lot of single parent families are economically disadvantaged too, where subsidised child care and/or that community is not available, where certain jobs cannot be taken due to responsibilities, and thus leave mostly low-paying jobs or welfare to support them. So it's not necessarily the single-parent unit that's at fault in itself, but what generally goes along with it i.e. poverty.

You've touched on lack of male role models (and we agree that it's mostly mum's left to look after the kids), and I think that male children need to have some guidance in how to grow to be a man and identify with males. Getting back to the original thread question, there seem to be two particular elements that may contribute to children growing into violent adults with misogynist tendencies - one of them being a domineering, abusive mother and the other witnessing the male parent/step-parent/boyfriend attacking the mother.

I can see how being left with a child to bring up alone may cause resentment to the father, and I think children being more perceptive than we often think, may infer that male=useless, lazy, possibly violent and irresponsible. I think that where perception of masculinity is negative, there is a subconscious draw to rebalance, which may look for more positive examples to aspire to, or may just look at ways to bring down females. I'm not saying this IS the way it is, I'm just suggesting why it MIGHT be, which is what the original question regarded wasn't it?



What double-standard is that? I don't think it's admirable in men either if you read a few pages back. People getting so drunk they can't remember the night before aren't interesting at the time or anecdotally. Is drinking heavily manly? Given that it often leads to impotence and diminishes testosterone levels hardly. It mostly causes the Id, the inner toddler to come out when drunk in excess, so it's hardly adult even. People drinking is fine, drunks are generally quite dull, it's got nothing to do with whether it's acceptable or not - equality to self-destruct is hardly something to aspire to I would have thought.

I still believe that ANYONE that goes out and gets drunk makes more impulsive choices, can get into situations they didn't want to and will be less able to defend themselves when those situations arise. If a male was very drunk, to the point of barely being able to stand, and passed another male intent on beating up someone, he's not only made himself an easy target, he will be unable to escape or fight back too. Now it's not his fault he's being attacked, but if (as we seem to agree) there are dangerous shitbags out there, then it would be wise to be aware of this and by not being so drunk it would have reduced his attractiveness as a potential victim.

A lot of these crimes are often done because the circumstances indicated that the attacker could get away with it, and with an incapacitated drunk that becomes far more likely.

I'm fully aware that men get raped by the way, 1 in 10 of the US prison population for a start, and at least four people I know were raped whilst they were kids. It's not like an ohmigod!! moment for me. Having said that, I assume (you can correct me on this), that mostly happens from sexual predators in the gay scene, and so it's something that is statistically negligible in the non-incarcerated or hetero worlds.

Anyway Nomadthesecond, I'd rather go back to the original thread query if possible, was quite enjoying the discussion before it descended into gender politics, so I'd rather not get into a flame war based on any perceived offense. I may have missed some level of sensitivity on certain issues but I'm more interested in the reasons behind things rather than proving some agenda, so I apologise for that anyway. ;)

I know you meant nothing offensive by what you said, I was more reacting to what I think is an annoying and patronizing tendency toward paternalism when it comes to behaviors that frankly aren't safe for anyone to engage in. But for some reason, people are much more likely to get worked up if women engage in them than if men do.

This is one of the reasons why women often can't get a bed in rehab in the U.S.--because historically far fewer women sought treatment because of the stigma attached to female drug abuse (and some people didn't take women's problems as seriously, because they assume women were too "feminine" to become addicts), and also because a female drug addict will often have her kids taken away by the state, while a male often won't. The same facility that has 100 beds for men might have as few as 20 for women. Silly, when there are an equal number of male and female addicts in the world.

Equality in EVERY way is worth aspiring to. Women deserve equal protection and equal rights under the law. The logic that goes: "if women get very drunk, someone could take advantage of them, therefore women shouldn't get drunk" is the same stupid logic behind the veil in Islam "men can't help themselves when they see women, therefore women are unsafe if men see women, therefore women should cover themselves." It's the same logic that justifies the idea that a woman wearing provocative clothing "brought it upon herself." The solution is not to restrict female rights and privileges because predators exist, the solution is to show zero tolerance for sexual harrassment/assault/rape under the law.

To believe that because some people abuse a right/privilege it's not worth extending to anyone is ludicrous.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Ah yes, another familiar old nomadism: only America has real crime and social problems. Alcoholism in Britain is limited to the village rector getting a bit red-nosed on sweet sherry after evensong, crime consists principally of cheeky young scamps stealing apples from fist-shaking greengrocers and when children get involved in gangs it amounts to a conker cartel in the prep-school playground...

That's not at all what I said. Alcoholism is a problem everywhere.

But if fucking hoodies are considered a serious issue, your society must be pretty fucking idyllic.

Fuck you, Mr. Tea. Why don't you go save someone from immanent rape at a bar or something?
 
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