actually i've figured out the autechre stumbling block. I agree his drill and bass stuff is the worst, but if Saw II wasn't marketed as unapproachable everyone would be on it because it's a far far superior album to saw I (which i am not hating on btw) but is very much of its time and doesn't have the rough around the edges melancholy of detroit techno. it's quintessentially English (aka. white) as anything and very much unaware of what was going on in the 313. with SAW II this isn't a problem though.