The Republican War on Transgender People, Drag Queens, and Queerness in General

[Mr. Tea]

@mixed_biscuits Have you by any chance got a really, really fit sister?

 

[droid]

I think we can see a couple of good reasons why incest should be illegal in this thread.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Sigh.

A former Prince George’s County, Maryland, public school librarian arrested on vandalism and hate crime charges last year is now also charged with possessing child pornography.

Charles Sutherland, 31, of Takoma Park, was arrested last June after police said he was caught on video spray painting the word “groomer” on entrances to public libraries in New Carrollton and Greenbelt around the time of Capital Pride Week.

Former Prince George’s Co. schools librarian faces child porn charges - WTOP News

A former Prince Georges’ County, Maryland, public school librarian arrested on vandalism and hate crime charges last year is now also charged with possessing child pornography.

wtop.com

 

[Benny Bunter]

This is an understandable emotional response, but a big survey recently found that the fraction of people who regret transitioning is very small:

How common is transgender treatment regret, detransitioning?

In updated treatment guidelines issued last year, the World Professional Association for Transgender Health said evidence of later transition regret is scant, but that patients should be told about the possibility during psychological counseling.

www.ctvnews.ca

Quacks 🦆

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I think this is very fair. I think if consent is your ultimate ethical value, you need to bite the bullet on incest or say why it's different.

Come on now guys. No more playing dumb. We all know why they're lumped together. They're all historically deviant (i.e. objectively non-conforming) sexual practices, some of which have become normalized and some of which remain taboo, and Biscuits is asking us to justify the distinction. Moreover, there's a serious history of gay culture and pederast culture; see NAMBLA. This is just a sociological fact, and a history the gay community has (quite well-documentedly, and quite understandably) try to distance itself from.

So many things wrong with this, and so sick of people dragging it into everything queer-related, in bad faith the overwhelming majority of the time

and before I waste time answering it, let's be 100% clear that you know just as well as I and everyone else that @mixed_biscuits absolutely isn't bringing this up in good faith, and neither is chava or any of the other resident alt right/shitheel brigade (I'll grant that benny b, being a hardline TERF/SWERF, is probably at least sincere in his beliefs)

and I want to note strongly that in a thread about a devastating attack on the right of trans people to simply exist, what they've chosen to focus on, and you've chosen to facilitate, is this kind of bullshit.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

but since someone has to address it, let's bullet point

-there's a serious history of straight culture and pederast culture: see child marriage, which is still prevalent in parts of the world (for example, West Virginia, where state lawmakers just blocked - as in, on Wednesday - a bill to ban child marriage) and unlike NAMBLA, practiced openly and without taboo in many of those places. As always, pedophilia is not related to sexual preference, or gender identity. Labeling queer people as deviants trying to recruit children is both the oldest and ugliest smear in the book.

-there is no objective standard of "conforming" sexual practices. Attitudes to both sexual practices and gender identity have varied widely across human societies. This is, as you put it, a sociological fact. So you/anyone can take that "historically deviant" argument as a basis for anything and shove it.

-and since I'm stuck addressing incest: no, I don't have a problem with it if adult siblings on birth control want to fuck each other. The issue isn't sex, or attraction, but that their potential children can't consent to being the product of inbreeding. I might find it weird, but it's their business. And to get the inevitable reductio ad absurdum out of the way: same goes for adult child and parent relationships. I would assume that virtually all parent-child incest begins or takes place when the child is a minor, i.e. molestation which is obviously unacceptable, but in the hypothetical event that an adult was like yeah I want to fuck my dad and we use birth control, go with god. Presumably it would cause difficulties with their relatives and, I mean, many other facets of life but again, that's their business.

I will note that one reason that Republicans shouldn't try biscuit's galaxy brain level incest gambit is that they have a long, long history of actively defending sexual assault and misconduct, as well as pedophilia (see: Roy Moore). So do the Democrats tbc; it's only recently that they've been dragged into more responsible positions by MeToo etc.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

It's a 'wedge issue' that's been created from nowhere for political gain. Goebbels said "Propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated are confident they are acting on their own free will". Same goes for loads of 'Wedge Issues', people would be thinking about something else if it wasn't for the political capitol behind it. The thing that bugs about it, other than having to put up with those with strong The Party Line opinions (ie. A man is a man and a woman is woman), is that it has nothing to do with equality, general health of the population, or anything similar.

all 100% true

for most of post-WWII American history, the dog whistle issue was race. desgregation, civil rights, school busing, welfare queens, Willie Horton, superpredators, etc. At some point that became unfeasible, even as a dog whistle (immigration you can absolutely still use as an ugly wedge issue, but you can't wink wink nudge about black people the way you could up into the 90s at least). so here we are.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

This is such bullshit, the very opposite of "gender affirmation", in which there are no assumptions, no set goals, save one: that a child's developing understanding of their own gender should be taken seriously, to the extent of exploring with them what it might mean, rather than telling them what it should be.

This is the approach that most people I know with young children are in fact taking

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Further grimness:

Florida courts could allow 'emergency' custody of kids with trans parents or siblings — even if they live in another state

Senate Bill 254 would allow Florida courts to end or modify out-of-state custody agreements if a child is allowed to take hormones or puberty blockers.

www.businessinsider.com

Extremely grim, though would certainly be challenged in the courts

for a variety of reasons you never want to just default to a queer rights == civil rights comparison, but it's hard not to think about the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850

 

[droid]

and since I'm stuck addressing incest: no, I don't have a problem with it if adult siblings on birth control want to fuck each other. The issue isn't sex, or attraction, but that their potential children can't consent to being the product of inbreeding. I might find it weird, but it's their business. And to get the inevitable reductio ad absurdum out of the way: same goes for adult child and parent relationships. I would assume that virtually all parent-child incest begins or takes place when the child is a minor, i.e. molestation which is obviously unacceptable, but in the hypothetical event that an adult was like yeah I want to fuck my dad and we use birth control, go with god. Presumably it would cause difficulties with their relatives and, I mean, many other facets of life but again, that's their business.

Yep, Ive worked with people who have done medical research on congenital health issues, inbreeding, consanguinity etc. the list of genetic disorders created or exacerbated by incest is insane and the topic has been exhaustively researched. Incest isn't illegal and taboo because of deviance, its illegal because of the devastating effects it has on the gene pool and the appalling individual effects on children born of incestuous relationships. Its an idiotic and offensive argument.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

This aspect of self denying repression is anathema even to Euro-Protestant remnants, who have alcohol to worship, another self-denying ingredient. Rightly or wrongly, Burroughs gets at elements of such worlds and shines a small light, which brings us to Control. I wouldn’t use terminology like US national psyche because that’s absurd, more a deeply repressive stamp that many here can’t envisage because of light police experiences, queerness and unfamiliarity with firearms beyond fiction

You can bootstrap and coordinate, the US is never short of industrious, capable, committed people but it also has an incredible ability to deny its own diverse nature through Control. It’s ingrained and unfortunately I see no way of effecting actual behavioural change beyond maintaining a sense of dignity in the face of ignorance and sustained legal support services, sexual health outreach clinics and multiagency approaches which chip away at the wall

one of the more perceptive European readings of America that I can recall

the problem is that this is a direct and ferocious attack on the very tools than allow people to maintain existence with dignity, as well as their very existence

 

[thirdform]

-and since I'm stuck addressing incest: no, I don't have a problem with it if adult siblings on birth control want to fuck each other. The issue isn't sex, or attraction, but that their potential children can't consent to being the product of inbreeding. I might find it weird, but it's their business. And to get the inevitable reductio ad absurdum out of the way: same goes for adult child and parent relationships. I would assume that virtually all parent-child incest begins or takes place when the child is a minor, i.e. molestation which is obviously unacceptable, but in the hypothetical event that an adult was like yeah I want to fuck my dad and we use birth control, go with god. Presumably it would cause difficulties with their relatives and, I mean, many other facets of life but again, that's their business.

I'm disappointed you've addressed this because you immediately concede to the framework of the immediate nuclear family.

Come on Padraig, you know better than to recycle radlib talking points.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Its an idiotic and offensive argument.

Indeed, and I bitterly resent even having to address it, but it's even more offensive to me to just let it stand

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I'm disappointed you've addressed this because you immediately concede to the framework of the immediate nuclear family.

you're probably right but again, to let it stand is even worse

I also don't really want to get derailed into a technical argument about degrees of consanguinity etc

 

[Mr. Tea]

I'm disappointed you've addressed this because you immediately concede to the framework of the immediate nuclear family.

Come on Padraig, you know better than to recycle radlib talking points.

It's about reducing the risk of babies being born with horrible genetic diseases, you weirdo, not preserving "family values."

 

[thirdform]

I also don't really want to get derailed into a technical argument about degrees of consanguinity etc

That's fair enough, but this is where this kind of argument will sooner than later lead. Abolition of the family in theory and practice is still the benchmark, rather than this capitulation to postmodern choice.

 

[thirdform]

It's about reducing the risk of babies being born with horrible genetic diseases, you weirdo, not preserving "family values."

Like I said, biscuits sets you up in such a way that you have to concede to the defence of family values. That's why I don't think it should be addressed in that way. Take it up with him, not me.

 

[DannyL]

Yep, Ive worked with people who have done medical research on congenital health issues, inbreeding, consanguinity etc. the list of genetic disorders created or exacerbated by incest is insane and the topic has been exhaustively researched. Incest isn't illegal and taboo because of deviance, its illegal because of the devastating effects it has on the gene pool and the appalling individual effects on children born of incestuous relationships. Its an idiotic and offensive argument.

The taboo against incest has arisen as a collective strategy for management of these potential problems. Jon Haidt has written persuasively on this.

 

[Benny Bunter]

Calling a bloke on a forum (who you really know very little about) who thinks you shouldn't chop young girls' breasts off and sterilize children with hormones/puberty blockers or fill their heads with nonsense about being born in the wrong body etc etc (list of insanities is too long) a 'radical feminist' is pretty funny, but thanks for acknowledging I'm sincere...I guess 🙄

 

[Mr. Tea]

Like I said, biscuits sets you up in such a way that you have to concede to the defence of family values. That's why I don't think it should be addressed in that way. Take it up with him, not me.

Frankly we should all be hanging our heads in shame that he's got us talking about this completely irrelevant issue.