Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

[version]

A Close Look at Some Key Evidence in the Gaza Hospital Blast

A widely cited missile video does not shed light on what happened, a Times analysis concludes.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Mr. Tea]

Not really, no. Or, it depends what is meant by "military power". It's definitely possible Hamas leadership was looking at the inevitable response as an opportunity to show it's stepped up to the level of Hezbollah, i.e. can fight the IDF to a draw in prepared positions on its own ground, but that remains to be seen. And even with Hezbollah, the big caveats are the normal unwillingness of Israel to take serious casualties and international (and possibly domestic) pressure imposing military limits on the IDF, all of which may not apply now.

The initial attack was terrorism writ large, not an attempt to challenge the IDF. Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah is a serious military threat to Israel. They are rather security threats, which is a different thing.

OK, sure, it's still "just" terrorism, but terrorism on a scale approaching that of something that a state military might achieve, no? The death toll of their initial assault is equal to the better part of all killings by the Provisional IRA in three decades.

I think you said yourself (apologies if it wasn't you, but someone said it) that even the Hamas leadership might have been caught off-guard by the success of the attack.

Agreed, of course, that it doesn't put them at the same level as the IDF, or anything close to it.

 

[chava]

OK, sure, it's still "just" terrorism, but terrorism on a scale approaching that of something that a state military might achieve, no? The death toll of their initial assault is equal to the better part of all killings by the Provisional IRA in three decades.

I think you said yourself (apologies if it wasn't you, but someone said it) that even the Hamas leadership might have been caught off-guard by the success of the attack.

Agreed, of course, that it doesn't put them at the same level as the IDF, or anything close to it.

It was an impressive attack, absolutely. We all agree on that.

 

[version]

They're heavily bombing southern Gaza now, despite telling people to move south.

Southern Gaza in Israel's sights as world leaders seek pause in fighting

Israel's military intensified its bombing of southern Gaza overnight after one of the deadliest days for Palestinians since the conflict began, amid international calls for a pause in fighting to let aid into the enclave and prevent many more deaths.

www.reuters.com

Health officials in Gaza said on Wednesday that dozens more people had been killed in the south, where hundreds of thousands fled after Israel warned them it would attack the north in its bid to wipe out Hamas militants who mounted a killing spree in Israel on Oct. 7.

One strike brought down several apartment buildings in Khan Younis. "This is something not normal, we have not heard something like this before," resident Khader Abu Odah said.

Palestinian anger over the killings has been increased by a sense of betrayal as many of those who obeyed the order to move south are also being killed. The Israeli military says that Hamas, which rules Gaza, has entrenched itself among the civilian population everywhere.

Regarding that last point, I guess they're just going to bomb the whole place and everyone in it then? Seems like the justification of a force gone mad with paranoia.

 

[maxi]

I think all the facts and details are important, but stuff like this just makes the the hospital debate look like a farce


Apparently one of the hospitals Israel attacked since October 7 includes the Al-Ahli Arab, days before the eventual explosion (I believe this is mentioned by Finkelstein citing WHO in that video on the previous page but I haven't found the source myself)

 

[droid]

Yup

x.com

x.com

 

[mixed_biscuits]

A Close Look at Some Key Evidence in the Gaza Hospital Blast

A widely cited missile video does not shed light on what happened, a Times analysis concludes.

www.nytimes.com

Trojan Horse style, I like it. Interesting comment on the article:

 

[maxi]

Trojan Horse style, I like it. Interesting comment on the article:

View attachment 16471

moving to oust hamas in between desperately fleeing from place to place to avoid death? 'put aside any attempts to collect enough water to feed your children today, it's time to organise a mass protest'

IDF state terror has killed more than four times as many civilians as Hamas did by now, so I expect the commenter is also calling for an immediate mass public revolt from Israelis to oust the Netanyahu government?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

moving to oust hamas in between desperately fleeing from place to place to avoid death? 'put aside any attempts to collect enough water to feed your children today, it's time to organise a mass protest'

IDF state terror has killed more than four times as many civilians as Hamas did by now, so I expect the commenter is also calling for an immediate mass public revolt from Israelis to oust the Netanyahu government?

Sounds like we've got a deal.

 

[vimothy]

thinking about this situation, I keep going back to 9/11, and I think there's a significant parallel. due to the scale and the nature of the atrocities committed on October 7th, israel had this amazing (for israeli strategy) moment of moral legitimacy which it could have used to build some kind of institutional basis for a response. but instead of doing this it has managed to squander--in a matter of days--that legitimacy to the point where it's almost as if October 7th is a footnote to the atrocities it has committed in response, with the effect of turning global public opinion largely against it.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

thinking about this situation, I keep going back to 9/11, and I think there's a significant parallel. due to the scale and the nature of the atrocities committed on October 7th, israel had this amazing (for israeli strategy) moment of moral legitimacy which it could have used to build some kind of institutional basis for a response. but instead of doing this it has managed to squander--in a matter of days--that legitimacy to the point where it's almost as if October 7th is a footnote to the atrocities it has committed in response, with the effect of turning global public opinion largely against it.

Quite, but what should it have done instead?

 

[vimothy]

that was basically the playbook of the Bush admin. instead of using the tragedy of 9/11 to pull the international community together, it went on the rampage in a way that alienated most of its peers

 

[mixed_biscuits]

that was basically the playbook of the Bush admin. instead of using the tragedy of 9/11 to pull the international community together, it went on the rampage in a way that alienated most of its peers

Aye but what concretely would be an overall effective (ie. Hamas-eliminating and innocents-sparing) response? Would it even be possible?

 

[version]

moving to oust hamas in between desperately fleeing from place to place to avoid death? 'put aside any attempts to collect enough water to feed your children today, it's time to organise a mass protest'

Dying Gazans Criticized For Not Using Last Words To Condemn Hamas

GAZA CITY, GAZA—The complicity of each and every Palestinian in the violent actions of their militant ruling authority was reportedly on full display Friday morning when dying Gazans received justified criticism for not using their last words to condemn Hamas. For example, instead of issuing a...

www.theonion.com

 

[vimothy]

firstly, not

Aye but what concretely would be an overall effective (ie. Hamas-eliminating and innocents-sparing) response? Would it even be possible?

firstly, not overreacting and bombing the gaza strip to smithereens, killing huge numbers of innocent civilians. that would *maintain* israeli legitimacy.
secondly, moving through or creating international institutions in response. that would *extend* israeli legitimacy.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

firstly, not overreacting and bombing the gaza strip to smithereens, killing huge numbers of innocent civilians. that would *maintain* israeli legitimacy.
secondly, moving through or creating international institutions in response. that would *extend* israeli legitimacy.

How does that prevent further Hamas attacks in the immediate future?

 

[vimothy]

because it delegitimises hamas in the eyes of the Palestinians, and in the eyes of everyone else. how does current Israeli strategy prevent further attacks from hamas? it doesnt. even the israeli govt recognises that the goal of destroying hamas is quixotic. all it's doing is feeding the beast and creating more hatred on all sides.

 

[Mr. Tea]

...with the effect of turning global public opinion largely against it.

Or rather, even more against it than it was already.

 

[Mr. Tea]

How does that prevent further Hamas attacks in the immediate future?

You haven't read a single thing droid or padraig have posted in this entire thread, have you? Or you've read them and ignored them, or immediately forgotten.

 

[vimothy]

Or rather, even more against it than it was already.

right, but october 7th could have reset the dial to a huge extent. instead of taking advantage israel has reverted to what everyone thought was their type. they blundered and gave away pieces for no material gain.