Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

maxi

maxi

Well-known member
mixed_biscuits said:
These analogies themselves are pro terrorist the way you have used them because the Hamas attack was not defensive but offensive (in both senses). Their attack was also de trop because they knew it would result in war but instead of just declaring war they decided to kill a ton of completely innocent people who constituted no offensive threat at all and take a bunch of similarly undangerous hostages. I don't think this is a controversial interpretation because practically all of the Western leaders immediately came to the same conclusion.
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It's not a defence of the Hamas attack. The storming of the border was legitimate and defensive (as any population has the right to resist an illegal occupation and attack military targets), but the killing of civilians is not justified. As I said in that post, the article was about Israel's killing of peaceful protesters on the Gaza border, but I think the thrust of the article applies here too. The point being that Israel has the right to defend itself only by first ending its own war crimes which preceded the attack (the siege/blockade), but not by resorting to force. You've been ignoring this point.
 
T

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
mixed_biscuits said:
Although most of the important politicians are on its side, the war is hardly a PR coup for Israel and the quicker it stops the better but obvs Hamas has to be removed.
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I didn't know you Israeli diplomat. my apologies, I thought you are being democratic British pedophile having utterly irrelevant inconsequential opinions.

Given that surrender is out of the question, could you please tell me how you are going to remove Hamas, mr. mixed biscuits? I have been hearing rumour in kibbutz you are using the hostages as leverage so that you can rebuild gaza after giving it to de facto PA control after expelling them to sinai. As a democratic citizen of Israel, who voted with all my democratic rights, not like those medieval Arab barbarians, my concerns at all times are peace, security and prosperity. You already failed when you failed to guard kibbutz properly and let those bastards take our families. your priorities should be to get them back by any conditions necessary.
 
maxi

maxi

Well-known member
mixed_biscuits said:
I support Hamas' surrender to minimise bloodshed. A ceasefire will just postpone it, possibly increase it.
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There's already tons of bloodshed everyday. You're just repeating propaganda that most people can see straight through. So there's this line now that there can't be a ceasefire because Hamas will rebuild its military and plan another attack, but what about Israel? which has carried out far greater attacks in the past and is doing still now. You could much more easily say Hamas should not stop until it has destroyed Israel's military capacity entirely, considering its far greater massacres of civilians.

It just really appears as though you only value Israeli lives and don't value Palestinian lives. If it was the other way round, and 10,000 Israeli civilians were killed, including hundreds of children everyday, and meanwhile the IDF were not currently inflicting any damage on Gaza, I don't think you'd be making the same argument.

There is no logic to saying that Hamas must be destroyed because it has killed civilians and plans to again but not saying Israel must be destroyed for killing many many more civilians in the past and continuing to do so.
 
T

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
mixed_biscuits said:
I support Hamas' surrender to minimise bloodshed. A ceasefire will just postpone it, possibly increase it.
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oh please, for the love of Gunnesh, grow up! this is not a football match! who or who you don't support is completely irrelevant, only the strength of your argued position does, and it has been found to be severely lacking.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
maxi said:
There's already tons of bloodshed everyday. You're just repeating propaganda that most people can see straight through. So there's this line now that there can't be a ceasefire because Hamas will rebuild its military and plan another attack, but what about Israel? which has carried out far greater attacks in the past and is doing still now. You could much more easily say Hamas should not stop until it has destroyed Israel's military capacity entirely, considering its far greater massacres of civilians.

It just really appears as though you only value Israeli lives and don't value Palestinian lives. If it was the other way round, and 10,000 Israeli civilians were killed, including hundreds of children everyday, and meanwhile the IDF were not currently inflicting any damage on Gaza, I don't think you'd be making the same argument.

There is no logic to saying that Hamas must be destroyed because it has killed civilians and plans to again but not saying Israel must be destroyed for killing many many more civilians in the past and continuing to do so.
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A Hamas surrender would leave them at least partly intact but would assure the cessation of bloodshed whereas a ceasefire guarantees neither. Hamas should surrender to save their compatriots. They have more say over the latter's safety than Israel do, to say the least.
 
T

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
mixed_biscuits said:
A Hamas surrender would leave them at least partly intact but would assure the cessation of bloodshed whereas a ceasefire guarantees neither. Hamas should surrender to save their compatriots. They have more say over the latter's safety than Israel do, to say the least.
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You flatulate an infinite deal of nothing, more than any man in all of venice, istanbul or Moscow. and to make it worse, you have no wears to peddle.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
having an argument, even if you think the presumptions that the argument is based on are stupid (or wrong, or whatever), is not without value. maybe its without value to you, in which case no one is going to knock you for not participating for sure, but it's not necessarily without value for the rest of us who are reading it, who might be thinking, "oh yeah but what is the objection to this common trope which is widely touted in the media"
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
thirdform said:
You flatulate an infinite deal of nothing, more than any man in all of venice, istanbul or Moscow. and to make it worse, you have no wears to peddle.
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If he had even the trace of humility, he'd be using "far to the right of even Hamas" as his board sig right now.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
maxi said:
I don't think you're stupid. I don't think anyone on here is. Just have a think about if you really believe that's true. I'm going to stop replying now
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Israel can't abandon their aim to defang Hamas given the latter's actions and genocidal ambitions. As long as Hamas is active Israel will be putting Palestinian civilians at risk. Hamas must stand down and return the hostages. This will satisfy Biden et al and there will be significant pressure put on Israel to soften their stance to Palestine in general as a gesture of reciprocation. With the most authoritarian faction off the table a two state solution will also become more likely. If you don't reply I'll assume you don't see anything particularly wrong with this.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
mixed_biscuits said:
Israel can't abandon their aim to defang Hamas given the latter's actions and genocidal ambitions. As long as Hamas is active Israel will be putting Palestinian civilians at risk. Hamas must stand down and return the hostages. This will satisfy Biden et al and there will be significant pressure put on Israel to soften their stance to Palestine in general as a gesture of reciprocation. With the most authoritarian faction off the table a two state solution will also become more likely. If you don't reply I'll assume you don't see anything particularly wrong with this.
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imeu.org

Benjamin Netanyahu: Putting “an End to the Oslo Accords” & the Two-State Solution | IMEU

The Institute for Middle East Understanding (IMEU) is a non-profit organization that offers journalists facts, analysis, experts, and digital resources about Palestine and Palestinians.
imeu.org imeu.org
 
shakahislop

shakahislop

Well-known member

can't contribute much to the overall discussion in this thread. but I can say something about the humanitarian stuff. it's hard to think of an equivalent of nearly a hundred UN workers being killed in any other conflict (maybe it has happened, but if it has I don't know about it). a really unprecedented massacre. al qaeda in Iraq and al shabaab targeted the UN for years and aren't even close to this
 
T

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
mixed_biscuits said:
Israel can't abandon their aim to defang Hamas given the latter's actions and genocidal ambitions. As long as Hamas is active Israel will be putting Palestinian civilians at risk. Hamas must stand down and return the hostages. This will satisfy Biden et al and there will be significant pressure put on Israel to soften their stance to Palestine in general as a gesture of reciprocation. With the most authoritarian faction off the table a two state solution will also become more likely. If you don't reply I'll assume you don't see anything particularly wrong with this.
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yeah only one glaring problem with that. the two state solution is the present day reality. seriously man, it's not 1993. if you're going to offer prognoses to distract from your contempt for Palestinians, (a contempt the British government regretfully grants to you in liberal perpetuity)at least make the minimum possible effort for them to be relevant.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Mr. Tea said:
imeu.org

Benjamin Netanyahu: Putting “an End to the Oslo Accords” & the Two-State Solution | IMEU

The Institute for Middle East Understanding (IMEU) is a non-profit organization that offers journalists facts, analysis, experts, and digital resources about Palestine and Palestinians.
imeu.org imeu.org
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The first problem to sort is the innocent civilians. They are primarily Hamas' responsibility and the only way Hamas can secure their safety is through capitulation. In doing so, Israel would experience extra pressure to accept a longer peace.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
thirdform said:
yeah only one glaring problem with that. the two state solution is the present day reality. seriously man, it's not 1993. if you're going to offer prognoses to distract from your contempt for Palestinians, (a contempt the British government regretfully grants to you in liberal perpetuity)at least make the minimum possible effort for them to be relevant.
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I've contempt for the Hamas people involved in the terrorist attack; who wouldn't? Palestinians in general have clearly had a tough time but I don't think idealising them and demonising Israel/Jews is productive.
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
droid said:
Its the glee I find so chilling about this, the rapturous joy on those faces. It feels timeless, like a glimpse into some elemental archetype of self-righteous impunity, a scene that must have been enacted countless times in countless places through history.
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it's certainly not unique to Israelis. I think it's primarily an artifact of the self-righteousness that made sense in fighting what they perceived as wars of potential annihilation against the Arab states, but which now seems bewildering, as well as frequently disgusting to outsiders watching the IDF flatten Gaza to crush a group which, despite its rhetoric, no one would describe as an existential threat to Israel, while Israeli politicians line up to outdo each other in bloodthirsty soundbytes egging on the destruction. as we've discussed before, every single conflict in the territories and Lebanon since the late 70s has further sickened Israeli society and here we are. no one has understood that process better than Israeli critics of occupation.
 
T

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
mixed_biscuits said:
I've contempt for the Hamas people involved in the terrorist attack; who wouldn't? Palestinians in general have clearly had a tough time but I don't think idealising them and demonising Israel/Jews is productive.
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good for you, you are an exemplary moral individual who many can learn from.

Now start talking realistically, which I know must be ever so difficult.
 
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