Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...
- Thread starter Mr. Tea
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
And you just know that, a generation ago, these same guys would have considered knocking the hats off elderly Orthodox men and carving swastikas into park benches a Saturday well spent. Their 'support' for Israel begins and ends with it being a way to antagonise Muslims and lefties.
vimothy
yurp
and each level relies on the level above--for example, israeli energy politics depends on regional geopolitics, and regional energy geopolitics depends on the global situation. the importance of Israel's natural gas discoveries for its domestic political concerns, for example, cant be understood without understanding both the regional alliances it motivates and the global context in which europe needs to replace russian supplies with a politically more palatable alternative.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
sure like I said everything exists within some greater context. what I think is incorrect is the flattening of any situation but particularly Isr-Pal to fit into into a narrow geopolitical context.
there was for example much discussion of Oct 7 as a response to the Abraham Accords and other Israeli-Sunni normalization deals. that's almost certainly true in some part, but the fundamental condition is the occupations and the denial of a Palestinian state, occupations which don't make any geopolitical sense. besides poisoning Israeli society and its institutions, the occupations - and the cancer of the settler movement - have totally wrecked Israel's foreign image and turned it into an international pariah. with a Palestinian state in place of the occupations, it's hard to see a Hamas in power - its raison d'etre is, and its credibility rests on, resistance, just like the Provos took the republican mantle from the traditional IRA in the early 70s.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
where droid and I probably differ is how thoroughly sick a society we think Israel has become
there is still the Israel of B'Tselem, Haaretz, +972, Breaking the Silence, Yesh Din, etc, an Israel with the ability to be self-critical and the courage to pursue peaceful coexistence. there are still some kind of brakes on the madness. Amichai Eliyahu was fired (he's the guy who was fired for talking about nuking Gaza) and Distal-Atbaryan - who is an absolute lunatic btw - was forced to resign.
my hope I guess is that Oct 7 wakes Israelis up not only how ruinous Netanyahu was personally, but his policies as well. maybe I have to believe that for personal reasons, idk, but there is a precedent - after their resounding victory in 67 the Israelis developed a belief, the conceptzia, that they were basically invincible and could treat the Arab govts with contempt. that was shattered in 73, leading to the downfall of Labor and eventually, peace with Egypt. Oct 7 shattered the illusion of indefinite occupation with minimal cost. I can only hope something better emerges the wake of the disillusionment.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
btw in re Israeli critiques of occupation, possibly the first and probably still the best is by Yeshayahu Leibowitz
written in 1968, eerie in its prescience. if you read anything on what the occupations have meant for Israel, make it this.
an excerpt:
written in 1968, eerie in its prescience. if you read anything on what the occupations have meant for Israel, make it this.
an excerpt:
Oh, I was thinking internationally. Im not making any predictions, but the longer this continues the more likely there will be some significant economic and diplomatic impacts. There's the Arab states, normalisation is completely dead there now. Israel does a shit ton of trade with the EU, its researchers get Horizon funding, they're in European sports leagues, the EBU... Business is business, but its gonna get very difficult to justify doing business with a country that is openly slaughtering thousands of innocent people whilst gloating about it on social media. The contrast with Ukraine is being felt quite viscerally I think.
As for internally. I saw there were some protests in Tel Aviv tonight, that took a lot of guts.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
The ethnic cleansing hits just keep on coming
one of the many crazy things about the last few weeks is how the official position seems to have gone from "there were no expulsions, they left voluntarily" to "the expulsions were justified, let's do more". denial of intentional expulsions having been a cornerstone of Israeli PR for 75 years.
one of the many crazy things about the last few weeks is how the official position seems to have gone from "there were no expulsions, they left voluntarily" to "the expulsions were justified, let's do more". denial of intentional expulsions having been a cornerstone of Israeli PR for 75 years.
mixed_biscuits
_________________________
I'm confused by this, if the nazis weren't as bad as Hamas because their genocide was ideological and they didnt really enjoy it, then surely the amazingly coincidental discovery of a pristine Arabic copy of Mein Kampf on the body of a dead militant implies some kind of moral improvement on the part of Hamas?
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Isaac Chotiner did an interview with a hardline settler activist, and it is nuts
If you have any interest in the religious settler mindset, read it
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www.newyorker.com
Only caveat I'd make is that religious settlers like her are minority tho a large one (~30-40%, something like that), and that a lot of them are actually there for things like cheaper and partially subsidized cost of living, a kind of securitized suburbia
But she represents the hard edge of settlers who are constantly setting up illegal hilltop outposts, attacking Palestinians and forcing them out, etc. And her part of the settler movement is in the one that's been in power with Netanyahu for the last 15 years, i.e. her neighbor Bezelal Smotrich, and will make any future two-state solution hugely more difficult.
If you have any interest in the religious settler mindset, read it
The Extreme Ambitions of West Bank Settlers
A leader of the settlement movement on expanding into Gaza, and her vision for the Jewish state.
Only caveat I'd make is that religious settlers like her are minority tho a large one (~30-40%, something like that), and that a lot of them are actually there for things like cheaper and partially subsidized cost of living, a kind of securitized suburbia
But she represents the hard edge of settlers who are constantly setting up illegal hilltop outposts, attacking Palestinians and forcing them out, etc. And her part of the settler movement is in the one that's been in power with Netanyahu for the last 15 years, i.e. her neighbor Bezelal Smotrich, and will make any future two-state solution hugely more difficult.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Yeah I saw that
Who does Israeli govt really expect to believe such ludicrous horseshit? Not to mention how it cheapens the Holocaust
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Some of it does, i.e. Sharon was Gush Emunim's most important patron.
Stuff like "from the Euphrates to the Nile" absolutely doesn't tho
Neither does the open endorsement of apartheid "accept our sovereignty without having civil rights or leave". Even the racist Basic Law didn't go there. It's like the whole reason they've avoided direct rule in the WB, so they can have "disputed territory" gray area fiction.
It's the difference between yr basic Revisionist Likud take and religiously driven fanaticism. The two have gone hand in hand for a long time but they're not the same thing.
Oh also, the difference between Netanyahu and his predecessors is the degree to which he's dependent on settler support to stay in power, rather than just supporting them for ideological reasons
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Nasrallah just gave a speech saying there won't be a full war
More and more if it does kick off in the north I think the escalation will be Israeli
I just don't put anything past this govt