Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

maxi

maxi

Well-known member
droid said:
Its insidious, especially when you consider the utter lack of scrutiny of Israeli claims.

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Yeah, some likely burned because of stuff like this.
https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/

"According to him, only on Monday night and only after the commanders in the field made difficult decisions — including shelling houses with all their occupants inside in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages — did the IDF complete the takeover of the kibbutz."

It is clear Palestinian militants were hiding in these buildings with their Israeli captives as Israeli soldiers were blasting their way in with massive tank shells in close quarters. It deserves to be investigated who caused most of the death and destruction that took place.

It's been said Israel don't value Palestinian lives like they do Israeli lives, which is true. But it's even worse- they don't even value Israeli lives when it comes down to it. They don't seem to have much of a military strategy beyond blowing up everything in sight. In part to protect the lives of the soldiers. Some have commented on how even within the society, the deaths of IDF soldiers are viewed as a bigger tragedy than the deaths of civilians.
 
version

version

Well-known member
maxi said:
I hate how every single time the guardian mention the death toll, they say it's from the "Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry." As I think Ben Burgis pointed out, that's like referring to the NHS as the "Conservative-run NHS". As if people working in the health ministry have anything to do with Hamas' militant wing. As if death certificates are issued by politicians rather than health sector professionals.
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So much of the coverage relies on our ignorance, e.g. the footage of the alleged list of Hamas fighters found pinned to a wall which people who can actually read Arabic said was just a calendar with days of the week and no names.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
padraig (u.s.) said:
where droid and I probably differ is how thoroughly sick a society we think Israel has become

there is still the Israel of B'Tselem, Haaretz, +972, Breaking the Silence, Yesh Din, etc, an Israel with the ability to be self-critical and the courage to pursue peaceful coexistence. there are still some kind of brakes on the madness. Amichai Eliyahu was fired (he's the guy who was fired for talking about nuking Gaza) and Distal-Atbaryan - who is an absolute lunatic btw - was forced to resign.

my hope I guess is that Oct 7 wakes Israelis up not only how ruinous Netanyahu was personally, but his policies as well. maybe I have to believe that for personal reasons, idk, but there is a precedent - after their resounding victory in 67 the Israelis developed a belief, the conceptzia, that they were basically invincible and could treat the Arab govts with contempt. that was shattered in 73, leading to the downfall of Labor and eventually, peace with Egypt. Oct 7 shattered the illusion of indefinite occupation with minimal cost. I can only hope something better emerges the wake of the disillusionment.
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I agree with you and think it's important, as with Russia, not to fall into the trap of stereotyping Israel as unthinking war-mongerers. you can certainly read israel's attempts to build bridges with SA etc as tacit acknowledgement of the fact that it needs to find peaceful rapprochement with its neighbours to ensure its security, military solutions cannot bridge the gap by themselves (altho what Oct 7 showed was that it cannot ignore the Palestinians to do so).
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
lsrael is, in a sense, stuck in a quagmire, it cannot--probably evident since 73, certainly evident today--acheive a decisive military victory over its foes, but it also cannot conceive of an alternative strategy which all sides--including the Palestinians--can live with, so it is doomed to repeat the same inadequate moves from its playbook, to continued stalemate at best.
 
version

version

Well-known member
This business with the bin Laden letter's getting interesting. Some people think it's been orchestrated to smear supporters of Palestine and bolster the opposition to TikTok. There was a leak the other day purporting to be of the chief executive of the ADL stressing that Israel was losing the information war re: young people and that they had "a TikTok problem"...

That being said, the leak was published by Tehran Times, so not the most impartial source on this stuff.

 
D

droid

Well-known member
The fact that the BBC is now daring to criticise Israel for the first time in over 15 years is a strong sign how bad things are.
 
version

version

Well-known member
droid said:
Its insidious, especially when you consider the utter lack of scrutiny of Israeli claims.
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I'd heard about most of the examples here, but not this one:

On November 15, Middle East Monitor reported, “The Israeli army killed an elderly Palestinian after using him in a propaganda campaign promoting its ‘safe corridor’ in Gaza.” The IDF circulated a photo of the 79-year old man, Bashir Hajji, talking to IDF soldiers as proof of their careful shepherding of refugees fleeing the bombardment in the north. This photo was undermined by the fact that an Israeli sniper shot Hajji twice in the back of the head.

www.thenation.com

Israel’s Ludicrous Propaganda Wins Over the Only Audience That Counts

Why make an effort to be credible if you’re going to be uncritically echoed by the White House and Western press?
www.thenation.com www.thenation.com
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
shiels said:
How the fuck would I know anything about that? Any evidence?
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You have to understand that Biccies is working on the basis that for as long as at least one Hamas or Islamic Jihad militant is probably still alive in Gaza, the entire area and everyone in it is therefore a 'legitimate military target.'
 
D

droid

Well-known member
padraig (u.s.) said:
this is certainly the worst it's ever been. apartheid has always accurately described the situation of Palestinians in the territories but I would've always, with the possible exception of Sabra and Shatila, strenuously disputed "genocide" before this terrible siege. idk what else to call potentially starving an entire population to death tho. I think I said yunno, Stalingrad with tens of thousands dead and that looks entirely possible. and while certainly image pales in comparison to the destruction and death, it also looks awful and Israel has done a terrible job of selling it as any kind of appropriate response. as the saying goes "worse than a crime, it is a mistake". they've squandered whatever goodwill Oct 7 generated. every major govt minister from Netanyahu down sounds like a lunatic, their official govt Twitter accts are out here beefing with random celebrities, it's absolutely surreal.
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It's just undeniable now.

 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
shiels said:
How the fuck would I know anything about that? Any evidence?
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It's an important thing because it seems to be that the claim that Israel is pursuing a genocidal strategy hinges on whether these hospital attacks are directed at hidden Hamasians or at innocent medics and patients. I guess that's why people in this thread keep posting claims of the latter (from sources that one would expect to be partial). This is a dangerous claim because they think it may be used to justify genocide in kind against Jews in general further down the line.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Mr. Tea said:
You have to understand that Biccies is working on the basis that for as long as at least one Hamas or Islamic Jihad militant is probably still alive in Gaza, the entire area and everyone in it is therefore a 'legitimate military target.'
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If Hamas cared about their fellows they would surrender whereupon all the killing would stop; they're not going to win so the only reason to keep going is for their operatives' personal interests in not being put on trial.

A major benefit to surrender would be if Hamas said they did it to stop the collateral damage to their fellow Palestinians it would give them extra moral credibility and advance the Palestinian cause in the ensuing settlement.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
mixed_biscuits said:
If Hamas cared about their fellows they would surrender whereupon all the killing would stop; they're not going to win so the only reason to keep going is for their operatives' personal interests in not being put on trial.

A major benefit to surrender would be if Hamas said they did it to stop the collateral damage to their fellow Palestinians it would give them extra moral credibility and advance the Palestinian cause in the ensuing settlement.
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You care more about Hamas than everyone else in this thread put together, it seems.
 
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