Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

[dilbert1]

The difference is that I don’t think that particular group of Americans would put much stock in a politics of solidarity with the oppressed to begin with

 

[version]

I meant the idea of people who aren't directly involved adopting a provocative and extreme position from a safe distance.

That being said, I don't have a rebuttal to their position beyond appeals to taste and emotion.

 

[dilbert1]

Due to my own ignorance of the situation and discourse, I’m not clear on the notion of surrender being referenced. Hamas surrender in the war? Palestinians surrender to Israeli authority tout court? Surrender of land?

 

[dilbert1]

The pedantic, gleeful callousness Cutrone wields against arch-enemy of the pseudo-Left is cringeworthy, but at least the content provokes thought which is wrongfully and haphazardly tabooed

 

[version]

Due to my own ignorance of the situation and discourse, I’m not clear on the notion of surrender being referenced. Hamas surrender in the war? Palestinians surrender to Israeli authority tout court? Surrender of land?

I took it to mean total surrender, Israel take Gaza and the Palestinians give up the land.

Given the rhetoric and actions of the Israeli government, it doesn't seem as though they're up for much beyond scorched earth, although I guess they could soften if Hamas were to roll over. I can see why they wouldn't though.

 

[dilbert1]

As much as it sickens me to pose the question, because my most immediate answer is ‘their dignity’, what’s to be gotten by not rolling over? If rejecting Hamas politically and simply “refusing the terms of capitalist warfare” is armchair criticism, egging on a suicidal struggle against the world’s most well-funded death machine through our iPhones feels completely self-serving.

 

[version]

As much as it sickens me to pose the question, because my most immediate answer is ‘their dignity’, what’s to be gotten by not rolling over? If rejecting Hamas politically and simply “refusing the terms of capitalist warfare” is armchair criticism, egging on a suicidal struggle against the world’s most well-funded death machine through our iPhones feels completely self-serving.

If you're facing down a genocidal force then you're going to die either way, so fighting them seems like the option that affords at least a sliver of hope and, yeah, dignity.

... through our iPhones feels completely self-serving.

I think this is unavoidable, whatever position you take, unless you have a direct connection through relatives or whatever. Any opinion any of us have on political events, natural disasters, and so on, is going to be tainted by the casual engagement we're able to have with them.

 

[dilbert1]

Certainly. And if one agrees or not with the piece I linked, I hope nobody here would fall on the side that the people in Palestine (or in Israel for that matter) should accept the status quo. For me it’s a question about whether this conflict bears on that at all, and whether those wielding political power in Palestine aren’t doing so themselves, at least tacitly, or even working for something else altogether equally as unacceptable.

 

[Mr. Tea]

If they surrendered, it would all stop

"You are annoying me, so I will continue to beat up your little sister for as long as you are annoying. Anything that happens to her is therefore 100% your fault."

 

[Mr. Tea]

Ironic that the first person to accuse others of antisemitism also considers Israelis such inhuman, bloodthirsty psychopaths as to be literally incapable of stopping themselves from murdering children.

 

[droid]

That was one of Lasch's criticisms of some people's involvement in radical politics. That it was propelled by a selfish, therapeutic impulse toward self-actualisation rather than anything political or altruistic. There's a bit in Culture of Narcissism where he quotes from the memoir of someone involved with the Weather Underground talking about it in terms of how alive it made them feel, how in tune with their body, etc. The kind of things you'd hear people saying on an acid trip or after meditating.

Yeah, this is a standard trope of failed revolutionaries, sneering adolescents and reactionary conservatives, its one of Peterson's favourite lines in fact.

Ive known a few 'career' activists in my time. Other than being occasionally insufferable, they are generally committed, passionate, uncompromising, efficient and experienced workaholics who get things done. All qualities that we admire in pretty much every other profession. They are the Lenins, the MLKs, the Gandhis and Guevaras, and yes they do, presumably get some personal satisfaction out of their work. I wonder why it is that we dont see the same criticisms of nurses, doctors and humanitarians who show similar dedication?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Yeah, this is a standard trope of failed revolutionaries, sneering adolescents and reactionary conservatives, its one of Peterson's favourite lines in fact.

Ive known a few 'career' activists in my time. Other than being occasionally insufferable, they are generally committed, passionate, uncompromising, efficient and experienced workaholics who get things done. All qualities that we admire in pretty much every other profession. They are the Lenins, the MLKs, the Gandhis and Guevaras, and yes they do, presumably get some personal satisfaction out of their work. I wonder why it is that we dont see the same criticisms of nurses, doctors and humanitarians who show similar dedication?

Dedication is only as good as the cause to which you dedicate it, and the means by which its expressed. Half of your exemplars were authoritarian terrorists. I don't think doctors and nurses are generally considered to be authoritarian terrorists, at least they weren't before they tried to blackmail us by killing patients in their recent pay strikes.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Ironic that the first person to accuse others of antisemitism also considers Israelis such inhuman, bloodthirsty psychopaths as to be literally incapable of stopping themselves from murdering children.

Are you saying Hamas is only refusing to hand over the hostages out of respect for Israel's self-determination and dignity as an agent? Shouldn't they care more about their kith and kin than the moral self-actualisation of an avowed enemy?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Picture the scene: @Mr. Tea walking his beloved pet dog Jimpy along a narrow country road. Suddenly an 18 wheeler hoves into view, barrelling along. 'Quickly, please take me in your arms or I shall be squashed,' barked Jimpy. Tea: 'Don't worry Jimpy, you're in the right and this juggernauting jughead is in the wrong, and they should stop. Not only are they flagrantly flouting the speed limit but the vehicle is clearly too heavy to have legally crossed the clearly signposted bridge that precedes this sma -'

 

[Mr. Tea]

Are you saying Hamas is only refusing to hand over the hostages out of respect for Israel's self-determination and dignity as an agent? Shouldn't they care more about their kith and kin than the moral self-actualisation of an avowed enemy?

Once again you are wriggling like a trapped snake to try and place the blame for children being deliberately shot dead with someone other than the people shooting them.

 

[version]

Yeah, this is a standard trope of failed revolutionaries, sneering adolescents and reactionary conservatives, its one of Peterson's favourite lines in fact.

Ive known a few 'career' activists in my time. Other than being occasionally insufferable, they are generally committed, passionate, uncompromising, efficient and experienced workaholics who get things done. All qualities that we admire in pretty much every other profession. They are the Lenins, the MLKs, the Gandhis and Guevaras, and yes they do, presumably get some personal satisfaction out of their work. I wonder why it is that we dont see the same criticisms of nurses, doctors and humanitarians who show similar dedication?

My knee jerk response was to somewhat agree with him, but then I realised I was basing my impression off idiots on Twitter and the like rather than the people actually trying to do something on the ground. It certainly seems to hold true for great swathes of the former, but I imagine the difficulty and thanklessness of taking it seriously weeds out those people when it comes to long term commitment to organising and action.

 

[dilbert1]

Reposting stories and donating to mutual aid funds, or doing Weatherman-style soft terrorism, i.e., the kinds of activism we were criticizing, is not equivalent to being a doctor. And its not at all uncommon to hear people take issue with doctors’ inflated pay and warped incentive structures. The problem isn’t that deriving personal gratification sullies an otherwise ethical act. It’s that in the ideological backwater of the American Left, personal ethics has basically eclipsed political judgment completely. Feeling good and getting into heaven (and the inevitable social policing that comes along with those) aren’t only byproducts, they’re the main event.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Once again you are wriggling like a trapped snake to try and place the blame for children being deliberately shot dead with someone other than the people shooting them.

You're the one playing the blame game and doing exactly what Dilbert's article disparages.

Who's responsible for Jimpy's demise?

 

[Mr. Tea]

You're the one playing the blame game and doing exactly what Dilbert's article disparages.

Who's responsible for Jimpy's demise?

Well just as long as we're clear that you, the forum's most prominent pro-Israel rhetorician, has likened the Israeli state to a mindless, soulless, unstoppable killing machine.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Well just as long as we're clear that you, the forum's most prominent pro-Israel rhetorician, has likened the Israeli state to a mindless, soulless, unstoppable killing machine.

Answer the question