Lana Del Rey - Born to Die

[Mr. Tea]

im certainly willing to beleive there are better stouts, possibly even significantly better stouts, but ive never seen stout in a pub that wasnt guiness in my whole entire life. (not including sam smiths)

But availability is not the same thing as quality. The ubiquity of McDonald's doesn't make their food any better, it just makes it easier to come by.

 

[luka]

um, sure. thats inarguable.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Which is precisely the point i've been trying to make - as soon as you're asked to explain what you mean by authenticity, you collapse into a 'we all understand it' non-answer.

Theorem: Authenticity is to zhao as Quality is to Robert Pirsig.

 

[baboon2004]

i'm going to start listening to music made by people who have never themselves heard any other music. That will be properly authentic, and as a result it will be the best music ever made.

Slightly off-topic, but I quite like Lana del Rey.

 

[IdleRich]

Well obviously not everyone likes them but you know what I mean. Bowie is a better example I guess of a rock star who is one of the most interesting and (in my opinion) best artists in the mainstream who has pretty much always tried to be as inauthentic as possible.

 

[zhao]

You're evading the question again, because you can't answer it. Which is precisely the point i've been trying to make - as soon as you're asked to explain what you mean by authenticity, you collapse into a 'we all understand it' non-answer.

you are very much mistaken.

i had hoped that i wouldn't have to waste my time describing something which everyone here understands, but is choosing to deny because of some head-in-ass post-modern fad. but OK, for your hypocrisy i will sacrifice some minutes of my life:

in the sphere of cultural production, Authenticity is a relative concept which connotes:

A. a product having resulted from the actual subjective life experiences of its maker, created with his/her aesthetic and otherwise decisions, as opposed to decisions made from more impersonal and alienated methods such as statistical information, focus groups, etc.

B. a product originating from within a collective historical body, the shared language and customs of a social group, the cohesion of distilled individual subjective experience over time, which we can here call Culture; as opposed to imitations of such products, by superficially appropriating its language, aesthetics, or characteristics, from agents which exist outside of the particular tradition, the particular culture.

 

[slackk]

What a tedious conversation why on Earth did I just read that

 

[zhao]

not because you didn't know it before, but exactly because you already did:

Y'all dumb

 

[zhao]

What a tedious conversation why on Earth did I just read that

yes, empty hypocritical posturing is very tedious indeed.

 

[baboon2004]

you are wrong.

i had hoped that i don't have to waste my time to describe something that everyone here understands, but is choosing to deny because of some head-in-ass post-modern fad. but OK, for your hypocrisy i will sacrifice some minutes of my life:

in the sphere of cultural production, Authenticity is a relative concept which connotes:

A. a product having resulted from the actual subjective life experiences of its maker, created with his/her aesthetic and otherwise decisions, as opposed to decisions made from more impersonal and alienated methods such as statistical information, focus groups, etc.

B. a product originating from within a collective historical body, the shared language and customs of a social group, the cohesion of distilled individual subjective experience over time, which we can here call Culture; as opposed to imitations of such products, by superficially appropriating its language, aesthetics, or characteristics, from agents which exist outside of the particular collectivity, the particular culture.

A - to use some of your previous examples, UB40 evolved from a focus group? No, they started a band for numerous reasons which probably (unless you know them?) included their own life experiences. So UB40 are authentic then. Seemed like you were saying the opposite previously, that's all.

B - so that social group has evolved completely independently of all other social groups? Or are we just ignoring the reality of life, in order to preserve the simple purity of your argument? And if you exist outside of a particular 'collectivity', how do you get inside that collectivity? By adopting some of its language, aesthetics, characteristics etc, but in a 'deep' way? Or are you part of that 'collectivity' at birth, and that's the only way you can belong?

And, er.... since, to take an example, South African house included (pretty strong) elements from people creating music in Chicago, it's inauthentic, right, because it's an imitation of the collectivity of musicians in Chicago, by people who exist outside that collectivity?


i think you're the hypocrite here. Or maybe you're just talking absolute rubbish.

 

[zhao]

your disingenuous asinine bullshit has cost me full 10 minutes.

thanks a lot you poseurs.

 

[zhao]

A - to use some of your previous examples, UB40 evolved from a focus group? No, they started a band for numerous reasons which probably (unless you know them?) included their own life experiences. So UB40 are authentic then. Seemed like you were saying the opposite previously, that's all.

B - so that social group has evolved completely independently of all other social groups? Or are we just ignoring the reality of life, in order to preserve the simple purity of your argument? And if you exist outside of a particular 'collectivity', how do you get inside that collectivity? By adopting some of its language, aesthetics, characteristics etc, but in a 'deep' way? Or are you part of that 'collectivity' at birth, and that's the only way you can belong?

And, er.... since, to take an example, South African house included (pretty strong) elements from people creating music in Chicago, it's inauthentic, right, because it's an imitation of the collectivity of musicians in Chicago, by people who exist outside that collectivity?

UB40 is copying reggae culture from outside of it, thus relatively inauthentic.

no culture evolved completely independent of other cultures, but its very recognition as a culture means it has reached a point where it can be readily identified as such.

 

[baboon2004]

your disingenuous asinine bullshit has cost me full 10 minutes.

thanks a lot you poseurs.

do you realise how ridiculous your self-importance is?

 

[baboon2004]

no you ass.

UB40 is copying reggae culture from outside of it, thus relatively inauthentic.

no culture evolved completely independent of other cultures, but its very recognition as a culture means it has reached a point where it can be readily identified as such.

you're a dishonest ass.

I was just showing that your definition doesn't stand up. Sorry you can't take that and start throwing insults around. You're the dishonest one, and now you're throwing your toys out of the pram, as anyone on here has seen you do many, many times before.

 

[IdleRich]

Well UB40 are an interesting one cos they started out satisfying most people's definition of authenticity (authentically young, British, urban and on the dole rather than Jamaican I mean) and then moved further and further away from it. Not sure that the above definition caters for that kind of artist although it's a common one.

 

[Mr. Tea]

your disingenuous asinine bullshit has cost me full 10 minutes.

Then fucking send him an invoice already.

 

[IdleRich]

"UB40 is copying reggae culture from outside of it, thus relatively inauthentic."

I'm not sure they were outside it though. I'm sure they were part of a UK reggae culture made up of people who had moved to Brum from the Carribean and others who just joined in with it cos they liked it.

 

[zhao]

I was just showing that your definition doesn't stand up.

my definitions stand up very well.

your bullshit position: Authenticity has no meaning, and no arguments can be constructed about some things being more authentic than others. --- THIS does not stand up.

 

[luka]

ub40 have godlike status among the maori belive it or not

 

[IdleRich]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2004/oct/28/johnpeel

One night, some very large men in sportswear and gold chains were loitering outside the sex shops. Two fell into step either side of me.

"You want some crack?" one asked.

"I'm fine, thanks, actually," I replied (I was a nice boy).

"You want some smack?"

"No, thanks. I'm alright."

One of the young men stepped in front of me, forcing me to halt.

"You ain't all right," he said. I swear I nearly fainted. "We want your money, anyway, boy."

I took out my wallet and showed them it was empty. I turned out my trouser pockets - maybe five bucks in change. I didn't tell them about the 10 in my shirt pocket, the 10 I had saved for my cab fare home.

"This ain't funny, boy."

"I'm sorry," I squeaked. I mean squeaked. "That's all I've got."

The three of us stood on the cold street in the dead of night.

"You English, ain't you, boy?" one of them finally said.

"I am, yes."

They paused. Then one asked: "You like reggae?"

I didn't. I hated it. But I had spent the weekday nights of my mid-teens in bed, the light off and the headphones on, listening to Peel. At last, a use for the knowledge he'd imparted, but which I'd always thought was pointless.

"I love reggae," I gushed.

"Who do you like?"

"Barrington Levy, Augustus Pablo, Wayne Smith, Sugar Minott, Ijahman Levy, Yellowman - I love it all."

"Whass your favourite record?"

"Prison Oval Rock, Barrington."

"You like UB40?" one asked.

"No," I said. "Can't stand them." (Sometimes you have to be true to yourself.)

"You don't like UB40?"

"You've got to understand," I said. "In England, UB40 is student reggae. You don't get serious reggae fans buying that. They're a chart pop group."

"I never knew that," one said, with wonder in his voice.

"Damn," said the other. "Those guys on my block think UB40's the shit. They have to know this."

They talked among themselves for a moment about whether they had misjudged the authenticity of UB40, then one turned to me.

"You go now, boy. And you be careful, y'hear? You shouldn't be out here this time o'night."