The Middle East/Islam as a trope in electronic music
- Thread starter Mr. Tea
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- edward said
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I wasn't being pedantic and I think it's an important distinction. Consider: someone might accuse you of displaying "poor taste" for decorating your bedroom with posters either of Pamela Anderson or of Myra Hindley. But it's a pretty different usage of the idea of poor taste in each case, and I disagree that they come from the same place. In one case it's an aesthetic judgement, and of course someone's class affiliation will have some bearing on their taste in that sense, but in the other case it's a moral judgement and I don't really see how you can crowbar the issue of class into questions of moral judgement without quickly getting into some very dodgy territory indeed.
Zhao: I'm not sure the analogy between taste in food and taste in art is very robust. For one thing, taste in food at least partly determined by the realities of our nutritional requirements, which are broadly the same for everyone. I mean, it's hardly surprising that most people prefer fruit that is exactly ripe to fruit that's underripe or overripe. Also, taste is just so hugely contingent on the culture you come from and your own personal experiences, especially as a kid. I mean, someone who's never eaten spicy food before will be unable to tell a good curry from a bad one because they'll find pretty much any curry inedibly hot. Likewise, someone who's grown up on (say) West African or Szechuan cuisine would probably find a lot of traditional French cooking extremely bland.
OK, so I agree that someone who likes pasta, eats it a lot and knows a bit about it can be trusted to have good taste in pasta. But someone from a place with no culture of pasta-eating might find it unpleasantly slimy. So how do you weigh up the relative merits of different cuisine traditions or, for that matter, genres of music?
In the Django Unchained thread, Craner said Tarantino's films are like fast food, which I think is very apt. A burger might be "objectively" less good than a sirloin steak but (leaving aside the difference in price) sometimes you just want a burger, don't you?
Then again, perhaps this analogous to the way it's sometimes fun to dance to music that you consider a bit 'naff' or 'cheesy', that you wouldn't normally call yourself a fan of in a Serious Conversation about Quality Music.
Back on topic (ish): not electronic, but aren't cod-Middle-Eastern themes quite common in ska?
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Heavy meta! Would be interested to hear that if you can find a link.
i said "very context specific" or did you miss that part tea.
meaning, of course, objective sets of criteria for hiphop only exist within hiphop communities.
for ceramic making, amongst people who know about it!
the same for abstract painting or haute couture or anything humans ever do.
meaning, of course, objective sets of criteria for hiphop only exist within hiphop communities.
for ceramic making, amongst people who know about it!
the same for abstract painting or haute couture or anything humans ever do.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
OK sorry, I did miss that bit. But doesn't that weaken your argument somewhat? I mean that a big part of the context is made up of one's inherited cultural norms and personal experience. If something is objective then it can't really be context-specific...
art is not algebra. we all know that.
besides "very context specific" i also said "constantly shifting", and "not written in stone".
but that doesn't mean the quality of creative work can not be judged because it's "all personal taste"
i mean come ON. that is clearly AB. SURD.
besides "very context specific" i also said "constantly shifting", and "not written in stone".
but that doesn't mean the quality of creative work can not be judged because it's "all personal taste"
i mean come ON. that is clearly AB. SURD.
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
For someone who rails against racism, you sure like a good generalisation.
And anyway, no they don't.
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so they don't agree that the tomatoes should be fresh? Some think they should be stale or perhaps in various stages of decomposition?
they don't agree that the noodles should be not too hard, not too soft? Maybe some Italians think the noodles should be under cooked and chewy?
perhaps some of them think the sauce should be tasteless and watery? or maybe some think the kind that comes out of a jar is better than home made sauce?
and here is another:
So Italians don't agree that pasta should be enjoyed with particular kinds of wine? maybe some of them think Coca Cola or Chocolate milk is the right beverage to go with a plate of good pasta in a nice restaurant.
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Slothrop
Tight but Polite
Does the idea that an italian person might not even like wine fit in with your racially prescriptive worldview?
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
How has this thread moved from talking about the possibility of objective judgment to asserting that, on some issues, everyone thinks exactly the same and therefore their opinion is correct?
Although it has neatly pointed out the massive problem with asserting objectivity - that it devolves rapidly into assertions that the majority's opinion ( or, rather, the opinion of the majority of a designated 'more cultured' group of people, those who know, hip hop heads or whatever) is correct...
A more interesting and fruitful question is perhaps why this question matters so much, why the assertion of objectivity in art is so important to people, and why do they get so upset (me included) by the notion that their heartfelt opinions are, however they dress them up, just that, their opinions...
PS Saying that no-one likes their pasta to be tasteless is like saying that no-one likes their music to be shit.
Although it has neatly pointed out the massive problem with asserting objectivity - that it devolves rapidly into assertions that the majority's opinion ( or, rather, the opinion of the majority of a designated 'more cultured' group of people, those who know, hip hop heads or whatever) is correct...
A more interesting and fruitful question is perhaps why this question matters so much, why the assertion of objectivity in art is so important to people, and why do they get so upset (me included) by the notion that their heartfelt opinions are, however they dress them up, just that, their opinions...
PS Saying that no-one likes their pasta to be tasteless is like saying that no-one likes their music to be shit.
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lol wut.
i'm sure there are Chinese people who don't like rice either. maybe 12. lol me the super racist, making OUTLANDISH generalizations that most, maybe nearly all, Italians think pasta should be enjoyed with wine
why i'm practically like Nick Griffin!
How has this thread moved from talking about the possibility of objective judgment to asserting that, on some issues, everyone thinks exactly the same and therefore their opinion is correct?
no that's not the point.
the point is that the phenomenon of ALL (or very, very nearly all) ceramics and pottery enthusiasts in 500% agreement that specimens from the Ming Dynasty China represent some of the finest examples of the "genre",
and all such agreements in EVERY "genre",
is testament to the fact that there DOES exist sets of objective criteria with which we can judge ANY creative endeavor.
again, these sets of criteria are context specific, constantly shifting, and not written in stone -- but they exist all the same.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
you've said 'that's not the point', and then just repeated my point!
What about circumstances where there is no such mass agreement? You're just asserting that something is true, and it's blatantly not - there are many arguments over the worth of certain pieces of art, music etc etc. Is Mark Rothko good, or shit, to take an obvious example? There's certainly no agreement upon that point.
And, more to the point, if lots of people don't like a piece of music that you like, are they objectively wrong? If so, why?
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Of course Rothko is considered to be amazing by most: and hundreds of critics will make very convincing cases for exactly why, based on physical, formal attributes of his work.
nothing is written in stone.
but if there were no objective criterias, and it's "all personal taste", then why the hell does ANYONE EVER talk about music or art???
everyone should just shut the fuck up already. because it's all what you like innit.
lol