Russia Surrounded

[DannyL]

not sure what you want me to say. ending the war requires some kind of compromise. idk what that is. pre 2014 situ seems like a good place to start.

It's the how of getting Russia to that point. Prolonged military defeat is the only way that's going to happen. De-escalation now will lead to a retrenchment of the 2014 borders.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I dont agree that russia is being expansionist however. its response to nato expansion is not surprising.

Come on, you're not actually that thick, are you. Quit trolling. Putin's compared himself to Peter the Great, FFS.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Putin isn't that thick either, or else he wouldn't have done the one thing that's just spurred two long-standing neutral countries to join NATO.

 

[vimothy]

It's the how of getting Russia to that point. Prolonged military defeat is the only way that's going to happen. De-escalation now will lead to a retrenchment of the 2014 borders.

so what's the end game? we smash russia and totally subjugate it? that's not realistic

 

[DannyL]

I dont agree that russia is being expansionist however. its response to nato expansion is not surprising. you can imagine how the us would respond if the tables were turned. altho in fact you dont have to imagine, bc it happened with similar results

Seeing as one concrete outcome of the war is Finland joining NATO, surely then Putin will call it off immediately?

 

[Mr. Tea]

so what's the end game? we smash russia and totally subjugate it? that's not realistic

Is it less realistic than hoping he stops at Ukraine as a gesture of goodwill?

 

[vimothy]

Come on, you're not actually that thick, are you. Quit trolling. Putin's compared himself to Peter the Great, FFS.

suppose russia entered into a military agreement with Ireland, and put military bases there. how would you feel about that?

 

[Mr. Tea]

@vimothy Can you enlarge on how invading a neighbouring country with the aim of permanently annexing it to Russia isn't expansionist?

 

[vimothy]

this has already happened anyway, and it led to the Cuban missile crisis and the ussr backing down bc the us would not countenance it

 

[Mr. Tea]

suppose russia entered into a military agreement with Ireland, and put military bases there. how would you feel about that?

Ukraine isn't in NATO and wasn't, in a million years, about to join NATO. So this is pretty pissweak stuff.

 

[DannyL]

so what's the end game? we smash russia and totally subjugate it? that's not realistic

I don't understand why people always extrapolate to an impossible scenario. I don't think Ukraine or the NATO powers are going to attempt to subjugate Russia.
Have to see what happens with the Spring offensive. Russia will have to be forced towards the 2014 borders, they won't go willingly.

 

[Mr. Tea]

And if the UK responded by pre-emptively invading Ireland and engaging in a programme of genocide, mass rape etc., you'd have happy to write that off as an acceptable price for a multipolar world, I take it?

 

[vimothy]

I dont want any of these things

 

[vimothy]

but they are inevitable

 

[DannyL]

I don't understand why people always extrapolate to an impossible scenario. I don't think Ukraine or the NATO powers are going to attempt to subjugate Russia.
Have to see what happens with the Spring offensive. Russia will have to be forced towards the 2014 borders, they won't go willingly.

And ultimately it's up to Ukrainians.

 

[vimothy]

in the same way that russian missiles in Cuba was inevitably provocative

 

[vimothy]

@vimothy Can you enlarge on how invading a neighbouring country with the aim of permanently annexing it to Russia isn't expansionist?

its obviously a response to nato enlargement, as people have been saying for decades

 

[Mr. Tea]

Putin, in his own address to the Russian people at the start of the invasion, barely mentioned NATO. It's all about restoring Russian national pride by bringing the wayward 'little Russians' to heel. The idea that there's anything defensive about it is an excuse that's been cooked up on Putin's behalf by this malorodous red-brown alliance in Western countries.

 

[vimothy]

but no one listened, and here we are

 

[DannyL]

in the same way that russian missiles in Cuba was inevitably provocative

I don't think they're the same at all. In terms of intentions, provocations etc.