Russia Surrounded
- Thread starter Woebot
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Any discussion of Iraq is framed as it being a monumental failure that left 100s of thousands dead and a (potentially) a grave breach of international law. I only say "potentially" because thus far the architects have avoided any consequences.
I just cannot imagine a similar discourse taking place in contemporary Russia. The invasion is widely supported, and the casualty figures on either side are not even be acknowledged, let alone lamented.
I just cannot imagine a similar discourse taking place in contemporary Russia. The invasion is widely supported, and the casualty figures on either side are not even be acknowledged, let alone lamented.
I'm not trying to argue that Iraq was not criminal. I think there's really powerful grounds for persecution of those responsible. But the critique of it - you berating me here, for instance - is the central part of the discourse. Russian attitudes appear to be fundamentally different at all levels - public and political.
droid
Well-known member
Yes, 20 years later it is widely acknowledged as a 'mistake'. At the time this was the response.
Yeah, our political discourse doesn't allow that it was a crime. It sure as fuck sees it as a colossal failure though and that's shaped policy ever since.
droid
Well-known member
BTW, Ive seen shit ton of Russian stuff on telegram describing Ukraine as a disaster. The fact that they have severe penalties for anyone who publicly strays from the official line might be a hint that the perceptions of 'discourse' is not a reliable indicator of anything.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
This number of "a million" that often gets quoted is far bigger than almost every other estimate of the death toll, and has been heavily criticised for being based on a survey rather than any kind of rigorous methodology. And insisting that this death toll - which was obviously massive even it was "just" in the hundreds of thousands - can't be called a failure or mistake implies that simply killing as many Iraqis as possible was the American game plan all along. As if this was some great win either for the USA in general or for some interest group within the country, whereas it seems to me that the USA's position in the Middle East and in the world in general is much weaker as a result.
vimothy
yurp
but the point is that, within recent memory, the US felt threatened, and then it went and invaded a bunch of other countries in response, aided by an array of western allies. so it's simply false to say that we're above all this stuff whereas the russians are prehistoric barbarians and cant be reasoned with
Idk. All of the polling I've seen of Russian public opinion shows the opposite.
But regardless, the fact there is minimal negative public sentiment about the war is kinda my point.
What negotiatioing strategy would work, do you think? What's their track record on sticking to treaties?
vimothy
yurp
my understanding is that the invasion of Ukraine has a good level of public support in russia. why that is seems like an interesting question, but I dont think that fact, assuming it is a fact, means that it can't be considered to be a rational actor who can be negotiated with or thought about in a similar way to other states
vimothy
yurp
clearly the situation is not good, and in my view not getting better, but I think it's too easy to see this as something which was external and inevitable rather than something with which europe and the us were intimately involved and which represents at least a strategic and political failure on their parts
Leo
Well-known member
it was all packaged as a vague retribution for 9/11, so lots of people played along. but there was certainly public opposition.
There were some of the biggest protests that have happened in my lifetime about the former, if not the latter.
I'd say part of that failure is not to recognise the type of state that Russia is.
vimothy
yurp
if you're saying that there were huge protests in the us against the invasion of Afghanistan then I'll take your word for it, I have no idea. but it was certainly not apparent from the other side of the atlantic at the time. similarly, from my perspective, russia seems fairly unified behind the invasion of Ukraine, and getting more unified over time (the dynamic of war, of escalation, which holds for the west in this conflict too), but that doesnt mean that I'm moving them into a separate category of alien peoples who cant be reasoned with or understood in rational terms.