DannyL

Wild Horses
Some interesting material that's a direct critique of Mearshiemer and the realist position from Phillips P O'Brien re. the shooting down of the Kirzhal missle by Ukraine last week.

To understand why I believe this is really important, we need to step back to before February 24, 2022. At that point, major figures in the analytical community, were arguing that Ukraine should not be provided with such advanced systems. It was thought that the war would not last long enough for them to make a difference, that Ukraine could not stand up to Russia in a conventional war, that it would take too long for the Ukrainians to be trained up on them, etc, etc.

To understand why I believe this is really important, we need to step back to before February 24, 2022. At that point, major figures in the analytical community, were arguing that Ukraine should not be provided with such advanced systems. It was thought that the war would not last long enough for them to make a difference, that Ukraine could not stand up to Russia in a conventional war, that it would take too long for the Ukrainians to be trained up on them, etc, etc.

Such an argument seemed based in an overall ‘realist’ understanding of how power and war should be understood. For realists, such as John Mearsheimer, Stephen Walt and others, political systems and domestic politics are relatively unimportant factors in state behavior. Mearsheimer even defined realism in this way quite recently.

““Realism is a theory that basically says states care about the balance of power above all else. States want to make sure that they have as much power relative to other great powers as possible. It’s a theory that pays little attention to individuals and pays little attention to domestic politics.”

In this vision, all states regardless of type, work constantly to improve their relative position in the power structure, so spending much time wondering about how different political systems or individual leaders behave, its not terribly important.

Now, as I’ve said for a long-time now (and hopefully much of my published research backs this up) the type of system fighting a war actually matters hugely. Dictatorships are generally inefficient and prone to leader-worship, leading to really bad strategic decision-making. Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini and Imperial Japan all were severely handicapped by being dictatorships in World War II. On the other hand, democracies can be more flexible and less prone to making terrible decisions based on the whims of their leaders, than dictatorships. They are also far more likely to create more advanced armed forces (partly because they actually dont want to sacrifice their populations if they dont have to).

One of the things that therefore seemed completely counter-intuitive going into Putin’s full-scale invasion was that fact that the Russian system seemed either relatively unimportant in assessing how the Russians would fight, or even in some cases even a positive. It was as if a dictatorship created armed forces should be seen as something that could make up for the fact that Russia was weak economically or suffering from a demographic timebomb...

Actually, this war has shown that regime-type matters very much—something that we can see, I would argue, in the Kinzhal-Patriot event. First, I have no idea how well the Kinzhal actually performs, but it seems that all the boasting of Putin acolytes that the Kinzhal would be very difficult if not impossible to shoot down because of its supposed high-tech performance characteristics—was nonsense. That the Ukrainians could shoot one down with a system they had just learned on almost immediately after they have made that system operational, shows that the Kinzhal cannot have been quite the amazing weapon that the Russian backers said it was. We should not have been surprised—dictatorships love to boast about wonder-weapons, partly to legitimate their rule domestically, but also to intimidate their opponents. Usually there is a great element of self-deception involved in this—and it seems that Putin’s Russia indulged in such self-deception.

 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
rational in the sense that you dont need an entirely new category or frame of reference to understand them. its falls under the heading of powerful states doing what they often do, rather than being an eruption of something belonging to our primitive past
It was the last sentence I was mainly trying to get a response from you about. So I'll ask again: does it not strike you that droid's attitude to the US - that its invasion of Iraq was an act of almost recreational evil, rather than an attempt (however unsuccessful) to gain some strategic advantage - suffers from exactly the same problem as those who'd write off Russia's actions as inscrutable, irrational, etc.?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Don't misrepresent me and put words in my mouth your idiotic worm. I have never made such a claim.
Then what was all that about the death toll of the invasion and aftermath not being a mistake or failure? The implication is that it was deliberate, is it not?
 

droid

Well-known member
There are entire libraries worth of books written about how the excesses of empires are consistently framed as 'mistakes', 'errors' or 'failures' on the part of benevolent rulers, whilst the atrocities of enemies are calculated, planned and deliberate. A war of aggression is considered the highest crime not simply because of deliberate killing and destruction, but because of the utter disregard for the lives and property of victims. Vietnam, Iraq, Ukraine - these are not mistakes or failures, they are crimes against humanity.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
The implication is that it was a war crime.
Which I don't think Dan was denying?

If you get in your car while you're pissed and cause a fatal accident, that doesn't mean you set out to murder someone, but it's still obviously a crime.
 

vimothy

yurp
Some interesting material that's a direct critique of Mearshiemer and the realist position from Phillips P O'Brien re. the shooting down of the Kirzhal missle by Ukraine last week.

To understand why I believe this is really important, we need to step back to before February 24, 2022. At that point, major figures in the analytical community, were arguing that Ukraine should not be provided with such advanced systems. It was thought that the war would not last long enough for them to make a difference, that Ukraine could not stand up to Russia in a conventional war, that it would take too long for the Ukrainians to be trained up on them, etc, etc.

To understand why I believe this is really important, we need to step back to before February 24, 2022. At that point, major figures in the analytical community, were arguing that Ukraine should not be provided with such advanced systems. It was thought that the war would not last long enough for them to make a difference, that Ukraine could not stand up to Russia in a conventional war, that it would take too long for the Ukrainians to be trained up on them, etc, etc.

Such an argument seemed based in an overall ‘realist’ understanding of how power and war should be understood. For realists, such as John Mearsheimer, Stephen Walt and others, political systems and domestic politics are relatively unimportant factors in state behavior. Mearsheimer even defined realism in this way quite recently.

““Realism is a theory that basically says states care about the balance of power above all else. States want to make sure that they have as much power relative to other great powers as possible. It’s a theory that pays little attention to individuals and pays little attention to domestic politics.”

In this vision, all states regardless of type, work constantly to improve their relative position in the power structure, so spending much time wondering about how different political systems or individual leaders behave, its not terribly important.

Now, as I’ve said for a long-time now (and hopefully much of my published research backs this up) the type of system fighting a war actually matters hugely. Dictatorships are generally inefficient and prone to leader-worship, leading to really bad strategic decision-making. Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini and Imperial Japan all were severely handicapped by being dictatorships in World War II. On the other hand, democracies can be more flexible and less prone to making terrible decisions based on the whims of their leaders, than dictatorships. They are also far more likely to create more advanced armed forces (partly because they actually dont want to sacrifice their populations if they dont have to).

One of the things that therefore seemed completely counter-intuitive going into Putin’s full-scale invasion was that fact that the Russian system seemed either relatively unimportant in assessing how the Russians would fight, or even in some cases even a positive. It was as if a dictatorship created armed forces should be seen as something that could make up for the fact that Russia was weak economically or suffering from a demographic timebomb...

Actually, this war has shown that regime-type matters very much—something that we can see, I would argue, in the Kinzhal-Patriot event. First, I have no idea how well the Kinzhal actually performs, but it seems that all the boasting of Putin acolytes that the Kinzhal would be very difficult if not impossible to shoot down because of its supposed high-tech performance characteristics—was nonsense. That the Ukrainians could shoot one down with a system they had just learned on almost immediately after they have made that system operational, shows that the Kinzhal cannot have been quite the amazing weapon that the Russian backers said it was. We should not have been surprised—dictatorships love to boast about wonder-weapons, partly to legitimate their rule domestically, but also to intimidate their opponents. Usually there is a great element of self-deception involved in this—and it seems that Putin’s Russia indulged in such self-deception.

I agree with the general point, at least. realism leaves out or abstracts away important details about the context of any particular clash. realism should be viewed as an analytical starting point, not an ultimate explanation.
 

vimothy

yurp
It was the last sentence I was mainly trying to get a response from you about. So I'll ask again: does it not strike you that droid's attitude to the US - that its invasion of Iraq was an act of almost recreational evil, rather than an attempt (however unsuccessful) to gain some strategic advantage - suffers from exactly the same problem as those who'd write off Russia's actions as inscrutable, irrational, etc.?
is this what droid actually thinks? I'm not sure this is really a question I can answer.
 

vimothy

yurp
ultimately, it seems that the us and its allies have behaved in a similar way to russia within living memory. so whatever frame you have, if it applies to one then its not unreasonable to think that it can apply to the other
 

vimothy

yurp
none of this implies that the actions of the us or russia or whoever are justified or legitimate, btw, it's simply a question of whether they are in some sense equivalent, or whether they require a different analytical mode.
 

droid

Well-known member
In Korea they dropped so many bombs they literally ran out of targets.

Air forces of the United Nations Command carried out an extensive bombing campaign against North Korea from 1950 to 1953 during the Korean War. It was the first major bombing campaign for the United States Air Force (USAF) since its inception in 1947 from the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF). During the campaign, conventional weapons such as explosives, incendiary bombs, and napalm destroyed nearly all of the country's cities and towns, including an estimated 85 percent of its buildings.

...The bombing campaign destroyed almost every substantial building in North Korea.The war's highest-ranking U.S. POW, U.S. Major General William F. Dean,[19] reported that the majority of North Korean cities and villages he saw were either rubble or snow-covered wasteland. Dean Rusk, the U.S. State Department official who headed East Asian affairs, concluded that America had bombed "everything that moved in North Korea, every brick standing on top of another"

...Pyongyang, which saw 75 percent of its area destroyed, was so devastated that bombing was halted as there were no longer any worthy targets. By the end of the campaign, US bombers had difficulty in finding targets and were reduced to bombing footbridges or jettisoning their bombs into the sea.

...On 25 June 1951, General O'Donnell, commander of the Far Eastern Air Force Bomber Command, testified in answer to a question from Senator John C. Stennis ("North Korea has been virtually destroyed, hasn't it?): "Oh, yes; ... I would say that the entire, almost the entire Korean Peninsula is just a terrible mess. Everything is destroyed. There is nothing standing worthy of the name ... Just before the Chinese came in we were grounded. There were no more targets in Korea."

But we are supposed to believe that Russia is some anomaly, an atavistic throwback to brutal medievalism, utterly alien to refined Western sensibilities.

The argument is so crude, so easily refuted with just the slightest glance at the historical record that it's barely even worthy of contempt.
 

vimothy

yurp
exactly, so demonisation of russia, viewing russia as fundamentally different in terms of its behaviour, is not tenable. we're not so different, sadly
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
exactly, so demonisation of russia, viewing russia as fundamentally different in terms of its behaviour, is not tenable. we're not so different, sadly
How about the Nazis then? Is that a fundamentally different type of regime, or just a hop, skip and a jump away from liberal democracy?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
exactly, so demonisation of russia, viewing russia as fundamentally different in terms of its behaviour, is not tenable. we're not so different, sadly
Several pages ago I listed a whole bunch of things that Russia is doing, or trying to do, in Ukraine that the US didn't do in Iraq, and you've completely ignored it.
 
I would rate Russia's current means of making war worse than the Nazis in every respect. A brutal, undisciplined, drunken rabble, dying in their scores in shit-filled holes. They don't even bother to tend to their wounded or remove their dead. You'd find better fieldcraft and esprit de corp in ragtag sub-Saharan motorcycle militias. It's the most basic behaviour. A total embarrassment to their so-called civilisation.
 
Top