Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well has it made Russia any more secure, do you think?
And why do you think countries in eastern Europe might want to join NATO in the first place?
Russia Surrounded
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And why do you think countries in eastern Europe might want to join NATO in the first place?
Yeah ask the Poles how they feel about Russia and your CMC analogy. Ask any of Russia's neighbours. The invasion is more like Hitler's going into Poland to "protect native German speakers" than Cuba.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Why, if it's all about security, NATO expansion, justified spheres of interest and so on, has Putin and the Russian media put so much emphasis on straightforwardly re-establishing Russia's past imperial glory? That, at least, seems to be an honest admission on their part.
vimothy
yurp
what are the differences, in your view?
The placement of nuclear weapons within striking range of the US by an openly hostile power seems to me markedly different to sovereign nations joining an existing defensive alliance.
vimothy
yurp
why might central american states prefer to be in the USSR's sphere of influence vs the US?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well for one thing, Kruschev deployed missiles to Cuba as a response to NATO nuclear bases being established in Italy and Turkey. Those bases are still there, of course, but no new bases have been established any closer to Russia since they were built in the early 60s.
Some bases were established in Poland and Romania in the 2000s, I think, but for one thing they deploy defensive missiles, not ICBMs, so their threat level to Russia is nil; for another, they've been there long enough that the idea of them forming some kind of casus belli for invading Ukraine is risible; and for a third thing, they're not in fucking Ukraine in the first place, and there was no prospect of any such bases being established in Ukraine anyway.
USSR?
And its a simplification anyway - it's contested, goes back and forth, country to country.
vimothy
yurp
it's clearly directly analogous. the ussr was going to put missiles on America's door step, and america told them to back the fuck off or the nukes would start flying. so they backed off!
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Do you actually have anything to offer beyond smug gotchas based on the events of 60 years ago that would only even work as gotchas if the USA were installing nuclear missiles in Ukraine?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Why are you persisting with this ludicrous pretence that Ukraine was either on the verge of joining NATO or was about to host American nuclear weapons?
vimothy
yurp
the us is just not going to accept military bases in a threatening position from china or russia or whoever. if china put a military base in Canada, it would invade it tomorrow
vimothy
yurp
my point is simply that there are any number of reasons, it doesnt imply that the ussr is somehow "better"
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Yeah and if DPRK established a plutonium enrichment facility at the bottom of your garden you probably wouldn't like it very much. But so what? It's a fantasy scenario with no relevance to real life.
vimothy
yurp
again, its directly analogous. the us would not countenance this, why expect russia to accept it with no quarrels?
vimothy
yurp
wasnt Cuba also a sovereign nation joining an existing alliance?